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  • More Jetter Questions...

    I've gone back and checked out some recent jetter posts but had additional questions.

    I'll give you a little background info. We are looking to ease our way into jetting. We would mainly be targeting grease lines such as restaurants, and large kitchens (schools, group homes, halfway houses, shelters).

    I am particularly interested in the Ace Sewer posts (thanks for the education) as we will likely be building our own jetter. We simply don't have the capitol or the market (yet) to justify a $30k trailer system and the grease lines we are targeting will likely not be larger than 4". If we could also use this system on roots that would be great. Ice is not that frequent of a problem here as it may be in the mountains so I don't see that being much of a factor.

    My first couple questions would be directed to Ace Sewer but anyone feel free to chime in I need all the help I can get.
    1)I've seen your posts regarding the AR
    RKV5.5G40HD-F24 pump and I'm leaning toward this, but what HP engine would you couple this with? Would the Honda 13hp GX-390 be sufficient or should we go larger? Or could I go with less gpm for grease? (say 4 gpm)

    2)T
    he portable unit we will be building will have a cart/reel and the motor would remain outside. We were thinking of supplying the cart with a 3/8"(ID)x50' hose. How does this affect the reel and jetter hose? Will pressure loss be noticable or a non factor? What if we had to run 100' from pump to reel? What affect would that have? Forgive me I'm not a physics major.

    3)Regarding heads. I've looked at a couple online sources but I haven't seen a spec for gpm on the heads. In reading through the posts I've seen that pairing up the right components (motor, pump, hose, head, etc.)is necessary to do a good job. Since this is a venture for us I don't think we will be starting out with a Warthog type head. I was looking for a more economical solution.
    -What type of head would be best (# of holes and gpm)?
    -Should the heads gpm be matched to the pump?

    -Is a generic head (with the right angle and jetter holes) enough to clean grease lines?
    For instance I've seen heads in the $20-$40 range. I should mention we will be suing 1/4" ID hose(probably 200' in length).

    3)
    In grease applications would it be benificial to use hot water to "melt" the grease or does the pressure alone do the trick so cold water is sufficient?

    4)
    I've seen in the past while jetting a greased up kitchen branch the jet actually blew grease back into another branch (at a wye fitting) causing this other line to back up(at around 12 midnight I might add). Is there a way to avoid this? If there were an outside c/o with a tee in the line I would pull the grease toward me but that is more often NOT the case. If there is an outside c/o it's usually installed witha wye so it is directional toward the city main and often 8' deep.


    5)What sources do you use to purchase hoses, and heads? I've been in contact with Shane at Allan J. Coleman(recommended by jrsaltz of First Response) in Chicago and he was very helpful, but always looking for good suppliers.

    Well, that is the start of my questions. Believe me I had many more befoe I went back and read past posts. Thanks to everyone who contributed to the past posts and thanks in advance for anyone who takes the time to read and respond to this one. I'm sure I'll have more questions soon.
    Last edited by youngsplumbing; 02-07-2009, 02:58 PM.

  • #2
    Re: More Jetter Questions...

    -Should the heads gpm be matched to the pump? YES. When ordering heads they should ask you what the gpm or your machine/pump is.

    -Is a generic head (with the right angle and jetter holes) enough to clean grease lines? For instance I've seen heads in the $20-$40 range. I should mention we will be suing 1/4" ID hose(probably 200' in length).
    I use 200' oof 1/4" hose. 13hp gx-390 but the pump is only 3.5 gpm. I refer to it as a mini-jetter. works good on, up to 4" lines and borderline o.k. on 6", beyond that, forget it. (I have used the Root Ranger on an 8" and it worked good with some twisting/flopping)

    For grease I use a head with 6 reverse jets, I can't remember the angle, it works pretty good.

    I have a flusher head with 3 forward 6 reverse but I don't get very far with that. Off the top of my head I'd guess 50'?????

    The head I use to open up a line (ice/grease/soft pack/unknown) is 1 forward 3 reverse. 4.5gpm.

    I use a Root Ranger for roots and it works very good with my set up.

    I ordered my heads(not Root Ranger) and hose from ebay seller autherbently(spelling may be wrong).
    One time due to a problem with Fed Ex not him, my order was delayed and he gave me a credit for their screw up. I think he puts out good product for the "mini-jetters".
    He also sells for the bigger units but I have no opinion/experience with him on that.

    INSIGHT PIPE is now Maine Drain Serving most of ME with no charge for travel! 207-431-6232 is nolonger a working # our NEW # is 207-355-1476
    Sewer main snaking (roto rooting). Sink clogs. Sewer backup. Pipe inspection/locating. No Dig trenchless repair. Root clog removal.We are NOT to replace your local Plumber, as we do not do plumbing. WE ARE YOUR DRAIN CLEANING EXPERTS!!! www.sewermaine.com waterville winslow bangor augusta skowhegan fairfield pittsfield oakland

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: More Jetter Questions...

      Originally posted by Gene Bickford View Post
      -Should the heads gpm be matched to the pump? YES. When ordering heads they should ask you what the gpm or your machine/pump is.
      Gene is right
      The best thing to do is flow and pressure test the machine once you get it all together. This way you know exactly what size(gpm/pressure) nozzle you run. Shane at Coleman is very knowledgeable we us them as well.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: More Jetter Questions...

        Originally posted by youngsplumbing View Post
        I've gone back and checked out some recent jetter posts but had additional questions.
        My first couple questions would be directed to Ace Sewer but anyone feel free to chime in I need all the help I can get.
        1)I've seen your posts regarding the AR RKV5.5G40HD-F24 pump and I'm leaning toward this, but what HP engine would you couple this with? Would the Honda 13hp GX-390 be sufficient or should we go larger? Or could I go with less gpm for grease? (say 4 gpm)

        hp=(gpm)(psi)(2.31)/3960... (6)(4000)(2.31)/3960=14; 13hp is a little light, especially as you likely won't get quite all 13 hp. I use a 24hp with mine, mostly because at my elevation gas engines lose hp

        I see no benefit to 4gpm over 5-6 as there is no decrease in machine size and little increase in expense, and you will likely get 5-6 from most hose bibs. If you have room for a supply tank go bigger yet.

        2)The portable unit we will be building will have a cart/reel and the motor would remain outside. We were thinking of supplying the cart with a 3/8"(ID)x50' hose. How does this affect the reel and jetter hose? Will pressure loss be noticable or a non factor? What if we had to run 100' from pump to reel? What affect would that have? Forgive me I'm not a physics major.

        I leave the reel at the machine; no cart, and typically have 300' or more of 1/4" hose. I like 1/4" hose, others dont. with 150' of 3/8 you should have no problems if you take care to make sure your fittings, swivels, etc are not too restrictive. A nice setup might be a bunch of 3/8 on the machine to use directly on many things with outside access, and a cart of something smaller for smaller internal lines.

        3)Regarding heads. I've looked at a couple online sources but I haven't seen a spec for gpm on the heads. In reading through the posts I've seen that pairing up the right components (motor, pump, hose, head, etc.)is necessary to do a good job. Since this is a venture for us I don't think we will be starting out with a Warthog type head. I was looking for a more economical solution.
        -What type of head would be best (# of holes and gpm)?
        -Should the heads gpm be matched to the pump?
        -Is a generic head (with the right angle and jetter holes) enough to clean grease lines? For instance I've seen heads in the $20-$40 range. I should mention we will be suing 1/4" ID hose(probably 200' in length).

        90% of the jetting I do with this machine uses 2 nozzles. One very small designed to pierce the clog as quickly as possible to get flow in the line, one to clean on susequent passes. The small one is 1/2" in diameter, one jet forward to pierce, two rows of 6 back, one row at 45 degrees to clean, one at 15 to propel. You'd probably be fine with one front and one row of six back at 15 for propulsion. The cleaning nozzle is the 3/8 warthog. I can't say enough good things about the warthog... get one; it's worth the cost. Orifice size and number is critical and must be matched to the flow and pressure of the machine and expected loss in the hose and fittings. You will likely have to try several before you get the performance you want.

        3)In grease applications would it be benificial to use hot water to "melt" the grease or does the pressure alone do the trick so cold water is sufficient?

        I like hot water, but not enough to take the size hit for a burner on the rig. Running domestic hot through the pump takes some life out of it, but I view a $300-$500 pump as expendable if abusing it a little gets me on to the next job quicker. Mostly put something (a nozzle) approching the size of the line through it. If you put a 2 1/2" nozzle thru a 3 or 4" line you can't leave too much behind.

        4)I've seen in the past while jetting a greased up kitchen branch the jet actually blew grease back into another branch (at a wye fitting) causing this other line to back up(at around 12 midnight I might add). Is there a way to avoid this? If there were an outside c/o with a tee in the line I would pull the grease toward me but that is more often NOT the case. If there is an outside c/o it's usually installed witha wye so it is directional toward the city main and often 8' deep.

        It's always best to jet up the system to the clog if you can. I commonly go the wrong way up a san t cleanout. beats the hose a little but I do it often. As to backing up another branch, I rarely have this problem, never in a residential line. You'll get a feel for when it's going to happen and why, and develop ways around it. It's rare for me, one building I can think of.


        5)What sources do you use to purchase hoses, and heads? I've been in contact with Shane at Allan J. Coleman(recommended by jrsaltz of First Response) in Chicago and he was very helpful, but always looking for good suppliers.

        I use parker 518c hose, get it from parker. nozzles are aquamole or stoneage, though stoneage has annoyingly stopped selling direct and I have to go thru a distributor now.

        Well, that is the start of my questions. Believe me I had many more befoe I went back and read past posts. Thanks to everyone who contributed to the past posts and thanks in advance for anyone who takes the time to read and respond to this one. I'm sure I'll have more questions soon.
        Ask away, happy to help. Keep in mind the equip I choose is based on a lot of considerations that, while important to me, may not apply to your needs.
        This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: More Jetter Questions...

          Alex...it is Alex right...I think I read that somewhere in past posts.

          Where does the hp formula come from and what do the numbers "2.31" and "3960" represent. Just looking to satisfy my own curiosity here.

          I couldn't figure out how to quote your quote that was within my quote...LOL...did that make sense? So I just cut and pasted below.

          Your quote:
          The cleaning nozzle is the 3/8 warthog. I can't say enough good things about the warthog... get one; it's worth the cost. Orifice size and number is critical and must be matched to the flow and pressure of the machine and expected loss in the hose and fittings. You will likely have to try several before you get the performance you want.

          Several different configurations of generic heads right, not several different Warthogs...that would be costly. Can you tell me what I can expect to pay for the 3/8 Warthog? Also I didn't realize I could use such a large head (you had talked about a 2 1/2" head in a 3" or 4" line). So you would just bush down the head to fit your hose then right?

          I also wanted to ask you guys about running a camera while jetting. I didn't think that would be safe but is sounds like you guys do it. I thought I even read somewhere that a camera was run with a cable, is that true? I have run a cam before and after cleaning a drain but would have been way to nervous to run it WHILE a jet or cable was working the line at the same time.

          Thanks again...and I'd still like to hear whatever advice anyone else could give as well on anything I've posted in this thread.

          Hopefully the knowledge I gain here from you guys will help me get a solid start instead of making a crucial error or having false expectations of what my setup can do.


          Comment


          • #6
            Re: More Jetter Questions...

            "I also wanted to ask you guys about running a camera while jetting. I didn't think that would be safe but is sounds like you guys do it. I thought I even read somewhere that a camera was run with a cable, is that true? I have run a cam before and after cleaning a drain but would have been way to nervous to run it WHILE a jet or cable was working the line at the same time."

            I use my camera and jetter at the same time to really clean the sewer at the joints. I stay 10 feet back then move forward to check my work and repeat as needed then pull the camera back to find my next target. When I am done the line is actually clean not just cleared.
            Seattle Drain Service

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: More Jetter Questions...

              Warthog has replaceable jets; give stoneage you machine specs and hose size and length and they will size the jets for you. If it is not quite right you can order replacement orifices for the nozzle in a different size; you won't need a whole new nozzle. Get the heaviest/slowest oil, and you may need to go a size up or down on orifices. your pressure flat out will tell you; if you run out of flow/rpm before pressure is maxed, step down a size. If you are overpressuring the system before maxing out flow, open them up a size or examine posssible other restrictions in your setup.

              Understand that the typical pump you end up with makes FLOW at a given RPM. Pressure happens as a result of restriction to that flow. you want to aim for relatively unrestricted flow to the nozzle, then size the orifices at the nozzle to allow that flow and make max pressure for your system.

              flow flushes and cleans, but at a low pressure from oversize orifices won't have enough velocity to cut out debris from the line. At higher flows, it will become a no-brainer and work out, but at the relatively low flows we are discussing you've got to find the sweet spot where you max everything out. I'd have to look, but I think I've got .035's in the sides and .017 in the front. Discuss at lenght with stoneage, make your best guess, gage your machine, and adjust as appropriate.
              This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: More Jetter Questions...

                I camera and jet at the same time. I make an effort to pull the camera away from the nozzle to avoid a direct blast on the camera head, but I push my equipment and sometimes it happens. I have issues others don't report with equipment, and it may well be due to the degree I push things, but may not.

                I've cabled and cam's at the same time... Rotate the cable with cam in line and you are asking for it, though it can be done... just show some awareness and care... It's YOUR cam you risk.
                Last edited by Ace Sewer; 02-08-2009, 04:13 AM.
                This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: More Jetter Questions...

                  The numbers in the formula just come up as a result of the units used for the flow and pressure, ie gpm and psi, as opposed to cubic foot/s or bar or feet of head. that formula as I gave it is good for water at around the temps we see; it changes if you are pumping something heavier or lighter than water or if the temp is far enough to an extreme that specific gravity of water changes significantly.

                  When I say "a 2/1/2" nozzle", i refer to the phisical dimensions of the nozzle, not it's nominal size.... they call it a 3/8" warthog because they expect it to be used with 3/8" hose. The actual dia of the nozzle is about 2 1/2". In general, whether cableing or jetting, I like to put something with a physical dimension, ie diameter, within an inch or so of the size of the line I am working on through the line to where it joins the next line. That way I know I cannot have just slipped by something in the line.

                  Last one I bought a 3/8 warthog was about $700 if I remember right and worth every penny. Just buy one and don't look back; you'll get there anyway. Replacement orifices if you have to make a change maybe $75.

                  You can do a shocking amout of good with 5-6 gpm, but you've got to be open to putting a little out there to get your process dialed. I was until recently convinced that I could not effectively cut roots at these low flows, but I've found a way.

                  If you can get Drain Medic to weigh in, he has a great deal of knowlededge also, though he's mia on the forum as of late. Never count Plumber Rick out either; he's seen a lot. Others have info to contribute as well.
                  Last edited by Ace Sewer; 02-08-2009, 04:41 AM.
                  This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: More Jetter Questions...

                    Cuda
                    The only time we camera and jet at the same time is if we can get the camera in from the opposite side from the jet. We won't do this entering from the same point. Even when entering from opposite sides we are very carefull and in communication to prevent damaging the camera. We will enter from the same side using the snakes but the machine is disconnected to prevent movement and we will push the camera in.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: More Jetter Questions...

                      Originally posted by HighlandS&D View Post
                      Cuda
                      The only time we camera and jet at the same time is if we can get the camera in from the opposite side from the jet. We won't do this entering from the same point. Even when entering from opposite sides we are very carefull and in communication to prevent damaging the camera. We will enter from the same side using the snakes but the machine is disconnected to prevent movement and we will push the camera in.
                      I don't want damage to my camera that's why I am ten feet back sometimes twelve as I found this was the range where my warthog was not spraying on my camera. This is when it's a straight sewer when there is a 90 I am a little closer. The only thing I worried about was possible vibration scuffing but I don't use the pulse anyway so there is not much vibration. Is there another concern I should have that I am missing?
                      Seattle Drain Service

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: More Jetter Questions...

                        Originally posted by Cuda View Post
                        I don't want damage to my camera that's why I am ten feet back sometimes twelve as I found this was the range where my warthog was not spraying on my camera. This is when it's a straight sewer when there is a 90 I am a little closer. The only thing I worried about was possible vibration scuffing but I don't use the pulse anyway so there is not much vibration. Is there another concern I should have that I am missing?
                        Cuda If the camera is out of range of the nozzle you should have no problem. It's when the stream is hitting the camera at high pressure you have to worry. Even using the pulse the line should not move so you shouldn't worry about damage.

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