Announcement

Announcement Module
Collapse

How To Post Images

Want to know the how to upload images to your posts? Image Posting Tutorial
See more
See less

Sump Pump Pit Sizing

Page Title Module
Move Remove Collapse
X
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Sump Pump Pit Sizing

    So for those of you that install sump pump pits. Do you all do the math to figure out the size the pit needs to be? Or do you just by what the supply house stocks dig a hole and drop it in?

    The reason I ask I am digging out a sump pit pit that was way undersized. Its 15" diameter, and only 20" deep. The poor pump short cycles so much that the thermal overload kicks in and the people flood. Now most supply houses only carry the 18x30 pits which in this case is still undersized. I am installing a 24" x 30" pit with a duplex pump system. I was originally going to do a single primary pump with a battery back up system. The home owner is having a whole house generator system installed so I opted to go with a duplex pump system that will handle all the water issues he has been having.

    So I am wondering how many of you do the math to figure out the proper size pump and pump pit size.
    Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
    A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
    Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
    Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

  • #2
    Re: Sump Pump Pit Sizing

    I try too Ron. Don't do enough to stay in practice. Or maybe lazy. Probably a fraction of the amount you do.

    Short cycling on a pump or pumps is one of my pet peeves. One should try to get to a reasonable point of efficiency on any pump or it kind of defeats the purpose of the system.

    J.C.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Sump Pump Pit Sizing

      I size based on flow and pump spec'd, usually dont get pumps from regular supply house usually my pump supplier, and he has everything in matched packages

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Sump Pump Pit Sizing

        I do not do any new construction or remodels. But I do get called when people are tired of replacing their pumps every other year, or has gotten water due to the pump sized was not right for the incoming flow.

        Zoeller has a nice little online calculator to help you figure out what pump to use for the type of flow that may come into the sump pit. I am not sure if it helps with sizing the pit itself. I do have an old Zoeller catalog that tells you how to figure the proper size pit to ensure it will not short cycle.

        One of the things I get a lot is home owners and even some engineers telling me they just need a deeper pit. What they fail to realize is deeper the pit does not change the turn on and of cycle of a standard sump pump like a Zoeller M-53 or a Hydromatic D-A-1. Both those pumps have a set turn on level of 6 to 8" and turn off at 3" So having a pit that tis 18" x 30 or 18" x 36" will not make a difference in the cycle time. I have to explain this to them every time and show them that the only way to solve the problem is to either install a larger diameter pit (which takes longer to fill) or if they do go to a deeper pit then they need to install a manual pump with out a switch then install a pump controller that turns the pump on at a set level (higher than the automatic pumps) and turns it off at the 3" mark.

        The new Ion Genesis that Metropolitan pump came out with fits this bill nicely. You set the primary sensor near the bas of the pit, and then you program the unit to turn the water on at the level you want to turn on. It also has a high water sensor to sound an alarm. It also has an pump alternator to run two pumps in a duplex system.

        Attached Files
        Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
        A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
        Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
        Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Sump Pump Pit Sizing

          Thanks. I'm not a fan of sensors in alot of things. I prefer just the standard switch or Mercury float.

          Do you find the sensors last as long as a float or switch?

          J.C.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Sump Pump Pit Sizing

            Or use the Zoeller N53, and adjust the float

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Sump Pump Pit Sizing

              Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
              Thanks. I'm not a fan of sensors in alot of things. I prefer just the standard switch or Mercury float.

              Do you find the sensors last as long as a float or switch?

              J.C.
              The sensor is a lot like the old Hydromatic pressure switch. Only difference is instead of the diaphragm pressing against a spring loaded switch its pressing on a pressure plate which the sensor's electronics on the standard ION switch is preset to turn on at 6" or 10" depending on which one you get. On the Ion Genesis, you can set the turn on hight of the pressure switch plate. I have only installed a dozen of these style switches so far in the last year, no complaints at all. http://www.ionnation.us/whyitsbetter.htm Check out this link and then watch the short video on Why it Works link.
              Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
              A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
              Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
              Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Sump Pump Pit Sizing

                Originally posted by Lee H View Post
                Or use the Zoeller N53, and adjust the float
                An adjustable float lets you set the turn on higher but the turn off will be higher as well so you will get a short cycle still.

                If you want to keep an 18" pit and make it deeper you can use the N53 and then install a pump controller that uses two float switches. The first switch hung low is the off switch and the higher switch will be you on switch. This way you still will pump the pit down to the last 3" (or where ever you set the off float). You can do an external switch that is mounted on a pipe above the pit with a float rod and ball. Then you would set the stops on the float rod to where you want the switch to turn on and set the other stop for the turn off.

                The key it to get the pump to turn on at a higher level and still turn of at the last 3" of the pit so you have a longer run time and fill time between cycles.
                Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Sump Pump Pit Sizing

                  "An adjustable float lets you set the turn on higher but the turn off will be higher as well so you will get a short cycle still."

                  What?
                  More cord past swivel point attachment means longer run time.
                  Its not just raising the same length cord up or down, adding cord Length beyond the swivel point besides swivel point height gives you set point control. Of course there must be room for switch to move around.



                  The N53 is used in effluent tanks all the time because of the adjustment capability

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Sump Pump Pit Sizing

                    Originally posted by Lee H View Post
                    "An adjustable float lets you set the turn on higher but the turn off will be higher as well so you will get a short cycle still."

                    What?
                    More cord past swivel point attachment means longer run time.
                    Its not just raising the same length cord up or down, adding cord Length beyond the swivel point besides swivel point height gives you set point control. Of course there must be room for switch to move around.



                    The N53 is used in effluent tanks all the time because of the adjustment capability
                    Well Mr Lee, I was talking about engineers wanting to keep a sump pit at 18" diameter, but making it deeper. So using switch like you described will not work in this case. (not enough room for the switch to move around) So a pump controller like the Zoeller 10-0125 control panel with the multiple switch design. (Off-On_Alarm) would be a better fit, or the new Ion Genesis since there is no moving parts, it just uses pressure plates and digital electronics to control the on time and the lower switch position to turn the unit off.

                    And I know all about the N-53 I still prefer Hydromatics over the Zoeller In the upgrade I am doing I am putting in the Ion Genesis, with a pair of Hydromatic OSP50M1 if the owner wanted Zoeller then I would be putting in a pair of N-98 instead.
                    Last edited by SewerRatz; 09-20-2010, 10:07 PM.
                    Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                    A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                    Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                    Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Sump Pump Pit Sizing

                      Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
                      Well Mr Lee, I was talking about keeping engineers wanting to keep a sump pit at 18" diameter, but making it deeper. So using switch like you described will not work in this case. (not enough room for the switch to move around) So a pump controller like the Zoeller 10-0125 control panel with the multiple switch design. (Off-On_Alarm) would be a better fit, or the new Ion Genesis since there is no moving parts, it just uses pressure plates and digital electronics to control the on time and the lower switch position to turn the unit off.
                      Engineers Suck!!!!!!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Sump Pump Pit Sizing

                        I have never done the math to figure it out. Short basin goes in, less digging on my part.


                        I have never had this problem also.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Sump Pump Pit Sizing

                          The only sump pit that I will size is a sanitary crock. Around here it is typically an 18 x 24 for the clear water. As for the pumps short cycling, the installer should know better and use a little common sense.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Sump Pump Pit Sizing

                            Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
                            I do not do any new construction or remodels. But I do get called when people are tired of replacing their pumps every other year, or has gotten water due to the pump sized was not right for the incoming flow.

                            Zoeller has a nice little online calculator to help you figure out what pump to use for the type of flow that may come into the sump pit. I am not sure if it helps with sizing the pit itself. I do have an old Zoeller catalog that tells you how to figure the proper size pit to ensure it will not short cycle.

                            One of the things I get a lot is home owners and even some engineers telling me they just need a deeper pit. What they fail to realize is deeper the pit does not change the turn on and of cycle of a standard sump pump like a Zoeller M-53 or a Hydromatic D-A-1. Both those pumps have a set turn on level of 6 to 8" and turn off at 3" So having a pit that tis 18" x 30 or 18" x 36" will not make a difference in the cycle time. I have to explain this to them every time and show them that the only way to solve the problem is to either install a larger diameter pit (which takes longer to fill) or if they do go to a deeper pit then they need to install a manual pump with out a switch then install a pump controller that turns the pump on at a set level (higher than the automatic pumps) and turns it off at the 3" mark.

                            The new Ion Genesis that Metropolitan pump came out with fits this bill nicely. You set the primary sensor near the bas of the pit, and then you program the unit to turn the water on at the level you want to turn on. It also has a high water sensor to sound an alarm. It also has an pump alternator to run two pumps in a duplex system.

                            just woundering how much dough do we need to shell out for that thing
                            SMELLS LIKE $$$$$$ TO ME

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Sump Pump Pit Sizing

                              Originally posted by post plumber View Post
                              just woundering how much dough do we need to shell out for that thing
                              A little more than the cost of a Hydromatic OSP50A1
                              Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                              A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                              Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                              Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X