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  • now you tell me

    did a jetting job today for a new complex that i bid a month ago. there were 22- 4'' outside cleanouts around the courtyard picking up the 36 unit complex built in 1968.

    before bidding the job, they gave me a plot plan with the noted cleanouts highlighted.

    today i get stated on the west side of the units 10 c/o and all was going good. had 500' of 1/2'' jetting hose out and using my new remote to control the water flow. worked like a charm from 500' out of direct sight. pulled back some roots with the warthog.

    wind up and drive around to the other half of the building. removed the 12 remaining cleanout caps so i can listen to the progress and measure the distance from c/o to c/o.

    so i get in to the first c/o and jet to the next c/o at 20' away. i can hear my nozzle as it enters the common line. pull back and what do i have

    a wadded up strip of fabric seaming tape. the same stuff they use to make trenchless liners seams.

    i got ahold of a board member and asked about it. he mentioned that they spent $108,000.00 last year lining that half of the complex

    then why did you have me bid the entire complex

    called up jrsaltz/ jake to pick his brain and ask about the seaming tape. he said that the tape is used during the manufacturing of the felt liner. basically it's used to turn the felt stock into the round liner. sort of like the seaming tape used for joining carpet. i would have thought that the resins would have bonded the felt and tape into 1 product.

    i also recommended to camera the line on my original estimate. along with my camering the line with my reduced bill. i guess it's wait and see.

    rick.



    here is the section of the seaming tape approx 1.5'' wide. shiney on 1 side and fabric on the other side.



    a sample of roots pulled back with the warthog nozzle.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by PLUMBER RICK; 06-03-2011, 01:17 AM.
    phoebe it is

  • #2
    Re: now you tell me

    Did You camera the line after you pulled out the tape? If so what did you see?
    Seattle Drain Service

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: now you tell me

      no, not yet. i had recommended to camera the line prior to the job and also recommended to camera it after the job.

      lets see what the hoa president has to say. i just emailed the invoice last night.

      rick.
      phoebe it is

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: now you tell me

        Isn't this the job that another plumber said that jetting the line could damage the existing pipe and thats how you got involved? And you said that you camera the lines before and after you jet to compare the difference.

        ADD> Here is the thread I'm refering to. http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/t36454/
        Last edited by TheMaster; 06-03-2011, 08:53 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: now you tell me

          Originally posted by TheMaster View Post
          Isn't this the job that another plumber said that jetting the line could damage the existing pipe and thats how you got involved? And you said that you camera the lines before and after you jet to compare the difference.
          no. that was a complex 2 blocks away that i did last month. took some time to sch. with the 2 owners for access into their garage.

          this is a new complex that got me from the next door complex that i've worked at the last few years.

          when they offered me to look at the job and bid it, my first recommendation was to camera the lines and determine what lines need cleaning. but they didn't want to spend the money on camering the lines.

          my price must have been competitive to get the job.

          i would think they would want to camera the line as they don't even have a video of the project they just spent 108,000.00 on last year.

          plus i gave them a 2 hour discount on the job yesterday. so they should use the discount to camera the lines.

          rick.
          phoebe it is

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: now you tell me

            It's odd how similarly we approach so many things, but still do some differently. I'd have put a camera in there right away out of curiosity if nothing else; if the two hours you were going to discount it anyway would pay for that, then just bill at the bid and add the camera at no additional charge. If not, and they won't pay for it, don't tell them what you found. Maybe you were pressed for time that day?
            This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: now you tell me

              Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
              did a jetting job today for a new complex that i bid a month ago. there were 22- 4'' outside cleanouts around the courtyard picking up the 36 unit complex built in 1968.

              before bidding the job, they gave me a plot plan with the noted cleanouts highlighted.

              today i get stated on the west side of the units 10 c/o and all was going good. had 500' of 1/2'' jetting hose out and using my new remote to control the water flow. worked like a charm from 500' out of direct sight. pulled back some roots with the warthog.

              wind up and drive around to the other half of the building. removed the 12 remaining cleanout caps so i can listen to the progress and measure the distance from c/o to c/o.

              so i get in to the first c/o and jet to the next c/o at 20' away. i can hear my nozzle as it enters the common line. pull back and what do i have

              a wadded up strip of fabric seaming tape. the same stuff they use to make trenchless liners seams.

              i got ahold of a board member and asked about it. he mentioned that they spent $108,000.00 last year lining that half of the complex

              then why did you have me bid the entire complex

              called up jrsaltz/ jake to pick his brain and ask about the seaming tape. he said that the tape is used during the manufacturing of the felt liner. basically it's used to turn the felt stock into the round liner. sort of like the seaming tape used for joining carpet. i would have thought that the resins would have bonded the felt and tape into 1 product.

              i also recommended to camera the line on my original estimate. along with my camering the line with my reduced bill. i guess it's wait and see.

              rick.



              here is the section of the seaming tape approx 1.5'' wide. shiney on 1 side and fabric on the other side.



              a sample of roots pulled back with the warthog nozzle.

              I guess I am little confused my first thought is that it didn't. However just to clear it up did you damage the lining by jetting it?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: now you tell me

                Just like Ace said I would have popped my camera in there just to see, it would have bugged me forever till I knew what it looked like.
                Seattle Drain Service

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: now you tell me

                  Originally posted by DanLawrence View Post
                  I guess I am little confused my first thought is that it didn't. However just to clear it up did you damage the lining by jetting it?
                  according to jake/ jrsaltz who does lining, he feels that this is just the material that is used in the making of the liner. the liner should be fine as it is epoxy coated and should be a solid piece of pipe.

                  the strip of tape is just the inside surface.

                  i gave them the option to camera the line before and after. waiting to hear from them.

                  dan, i might need you to look at another jetter. mine is putting on the hours.

                  rick.
                  phoebe it is

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: now you tell me

                    Well think about it lots of cities have relined their sewers for many years now. You know if their lines ever clog, they are coming in with a jetter. I know for a fact one of the cities around here has recently jetted a sewer that was relined 8 years ago. Now as to Ricks line where the tape was pulled out I feel that the tape was loose in the first place, and if you even rodded it you might of tangled up the tape and pulled it out as well.
                    Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                    A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                    Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                    Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: now you tell me

                      But shouldn't the tape have been inside the epoxy? Not saying anything about running a jetter down a lined pipe just I don't think the tape should have been exposed to be jetted and come apart. I would love to just see what it looks like inside there. Heck it wasn't even my job and now I can't wait for Rick to get the go ahead and stick a camera in there.
                      Seattle Drain Service

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: now you tell me

                        Originally posted by Cuda View Post
                        But shouldn't the tape have been inside the epoxy? Not saying anything about running a jetter down a lined pipe just I don't think the tape should have been exposed to be jetted and come apart. I would love to just see what it looks like inside there. Heck it wasn't even my job and now I can't wait for Rick to get the go ahead and stick a camera in there.
                        You would think the tape would be part of the pipe epoxied in place. I do wonder if the lining was done properly.
                        Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                        A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                        Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                        Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: now you tell me

                          Does not make sense to me, since it should only be a solid expoxy line now expose to the jetter.
                          Seem like some one forgot to remove that after they completed the job. Maybe i totally wrong but we jet lines we put liner into and only thing
                          should be expose is the expoxy fill liner which should be hard as a rock.
                          My guess is a miss on the people who line the pipe and if their is damage then they put liner in the pipe with out expoxy, lol
                          I agree cant wait to see the out come on this one.
                          Rick what type jetter you use, we got a us jetter 4018 but it was kind of expensive, at around 45000.00
                          And what pressures do you use on average when jetting lines.
                          One more sorry what suggestion if any on smaller jetter units for inside do you recommend.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: now you tell me

                            i have the same us jetter 4018. i always try running 4000psi at the machine since the pressure drop at the nozzle will be less.

                            i've installed a couple extra reels and an unloader valve which allows me to use a standard foot valve and spray gun. also limits the burst disc from blowing.

                            plus i've designed and perfected my hand held 3 position wireless remote control for the water valve. allows me to control the water from 500'+ away and i have full open, full close and 50/50 open bypass for flushing without pressure.

                            as far as a portable indoor small unit i have a 6.5hp 3gpm 2500# unit. and an 18hp 3500 5.5 gpm unit. along with a 2hp electric 2.1gpm 1500psi.

                            rick.
                            phoebe it is

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: now you tell me

                              When a liner is wet out, it is poured inside the tube (liner) and the pvc coating is on the outside along with the tape seam. Trust me guys, i have seen the tape joints fail many times and destroyed lots of work cloths with epoxy. The tape seam is never exposed to a whole lot of epoxy. When a liner is sewn together into a tube it has gaps in it, thus the reason for the tape seam. It is applied to help keep the epoxy inside during wet out. It is then loaded into the inversion tank and inverted into the pipe which at the same time turns it inside out. The tape seam becomes part of the inside wall of the liner and is actually the most venerable part of the liner. Anyone who has ever installed lateral liner knows that during the inversion process you are supposed to make sure the tape seam is at the top of the pipe if at all possible. We take extra precautions to ensure the tape seam is on top. I even know what manufacturer that is by looking at it. I stood next to the machine that applies that tape and watched how it works. The tape seam on my liners is clear and is adhered very well and heated well enough for a proper bond.

                              The liner Rick jetted is most likely fine so long as the installers used enough resin and achieved full saturation of the liner. It is not an installation problem but a poorly manufactured tube liner.
                              www.firstresponsedrain.com

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