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Making an Old Trailer Jetter New

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  • SewerRatz
    started a topic Making an Old Trailer Jetter New

    Making an Old Trailer Jetter New

    Well I own a Spartan 777 trailer jetter. It is running at 1700 PSI @ 16 GPM I talked to the guys at Giant pumps I can upgrade my pump to do a higher PSI at a slightly lower GPM by just changing the manifold head with the plungers and valves. The cost is a few hundred bucks. But I will have to update the motor as well. Here is a link of the series pump I have. The model I am running now is the MP 4130 the kit I would get will be 4124W which can provide me 2500 PSI @ 12 GPM http://www.giantpumps.com/applicatio...manuals/MP.pdf

    The motor on my jetter now is a Kohler Magnum 20HP which after talking to Plumber Rick I will have to get a 28HP motor at least. I have 500' of 1/2" hose on the real, just need to change out nozzles. So just wondering on what you all think.
    Last edited by SewerRatz; 08-14-2011, 12:55 PM. Reason: Typo

  • PLUMBER RICK
    replied
    Re: Making an Old Trailer Jetter New

    i've posted them before, but will have to dig them up.

    the 3 way ball valve is connected to a linear actuator and the actuator is controlled by an electronic actuator controller with the ability to have it stop at my preset positions. the controller is activated by a wireless remote and or a truck mounted push button or remote wired foot pedal.

    i can do 100% open or closed and 50%-50% open close.

    the entire system i pieced together from off the shelf parts and electronics. probably under $400.00 invested including 100' of 14-4 electric cord for my wired foot pedal i've never used. the 3 wireless transmiters are good from 200' -1000' with the antenna extended.

    pictures are buried and i'm late to dinner

    rick.

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  • pipe doc
    replied
    Re: Making an Old Trailer Jetter New

    Originally posted by SuperPro View Post
    Rick, what did you use for a wireless control valve?
    do tell with pics.

    Leave a comment:


  • SuperPro
    replied
    Re: Making an Old Trailer Jetter New

    Rick, what did you use for a wireless control valve?

    Leave a comment:


  • PLUMBER RICK
    replied
    Re: Making an Old Trailer Jetter New

    be careful with 1/2'' hose on 4''. 45's are no issue, but hitting a 90 or short sweep san tee, can get tricky. plus 7.5gpm is still possible with 3/8'' and some pressure drop.

    i have multiple reels on my jetter. 1/2'' x 500', 3/8'' x 400', 1/4'' x 150' and 1/8'' x 100'. plus lots of loose jumpers in both 1/2''. 3/8'' and 1/4''.

    at 7.5 gpm, i would still stick to 3/8''. 1/2'' is a little overkill.

    also with inside jetting, i would be very concerned with too much flow as you're jetting with the flow, creating a potential backup/ backwash. now going upstream, higher flow is not much of a concern. but seldom can we go upstream in interior plumbing.

    7.5 at 4000 is a good number for inside work. outside c/o i will go a full 12-18 gpm,, depending on nozzles and hoses.

    also inside work a shut off/ foot valve is very important, especially with those flow numbers.

    i use a hand held wireless remote flow control. not as instant as a foot valve. but it allows me to have full flow without the pressure and volume loss through a foot valve. also my machine didn't have an unloader valve so shutting off water has to be done at the machine via a bypass valve.

    i added an unloader for 3/8'' flow and added my own remote actuator. saving a cool $4500 from a factory setup. plus i have more control over the remote with variable flow via my remote and actuator controller.

    lots of learning when you get into high flow and pressure.

    rick.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ace Sewer
    replied
    Re: Making an Old Trailer Jetter New

    yr out of my experience there... i can help on theory and design, but I rarely see over 4", and almost never bigger than 6". I do fine on that with 5.5 gpm. 'course, I'm not doing 400' runs. 160' about the longest I see. Think you'd do better asking around with guys who run bigger stuff regularly on best pressure and flow. Nothing beats experience. I can help you pick a pump and set it up, but I don't know what'll pull 400' best.

    If I was you, I'd think about what my complaints were with my current setup. You've said youd like to get some more p, and are willing to sacrifice some Q to get it, but I'd go back up a step from that and ask myself what do I think I'll accomplish with that p that I can't do now, and start thinking about if that is the best way to do it.

    with 1/2" at 10gpm, you lose maybe 500psi in 400' of hose . Most of the charts I'm seeing don't even list a rating for 15 gpm in 1/2", the one that does suggests you'd lose ~1kpsi in 400'. The p loss in hose is minimal at low flows, pretty linear for a while, then goes off the chart when you try to push too much through it. From what I'm seeing, 15 gpm through 1/2" is getting into that off the chart area. So I'm guessing youd do better with larger hose (if it will not be too stiff to make the turns; if it's all straight runs then I'd think just get bigger hose and appropriate nozzles and 2kpsi would work) or more p and less flow. But I'm guessing. Talk with someone who does it.

    for the record, if I was setting one up with my limited experience, and it was a trailer with a tank, and was planning on 6" lines and 400' runs, and some 4" lines with some 4" bends, i'd steer towards 7 at 5kpsi at first, but I'd have to go looking at bend radii in 3/8" hose rated at 3,4, and 5kpsi, see how stiff the hose gets when you uprate p, and maybe end up with two hose reels or something
    Last edited by Ace Sewer; 08-19-2011, 02:59 AM.

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  • pipe doc
    replied
    Re: Making an Old Trailer Jetter New

    Originally posted by Ace Sewer View Post
    Probably need to swap to a different pump. Might also need to change pulleys to get correct rpm to new pump. I'd think yr 25hp kohler would do 7.5 gpm @ 4kpsi.
    what would be the biggest gains lowering gpm and ^ pressure . we do mostly P M on hotels strip malls and grocery stores ,with this jetter 4"-6"? 400' of 1/2"

    Leave a comment:


  • Ace Sewer
    replied
    Re: Making an Old Trailer Jetter New

    Originally posted by pipe doc View Post
    my jetter has a 4130 pump and 25h kohler the manufacturer specks say 2k psi and 15 gpm .a higher psi would be great if the conversion would work w/my present motor. i do almost all 4" so lower gpm wont hurt . i am still figuring out this jetter game.
    Probably need to swap to a different pump. Might also need to change pulleys to get correct rpm to new pump. I'd think yr 25hp kohler would do 7.5 gpm @ 4kpsi.

    Leave a comment:


  • pipe doc
    replied
    Re: Making an Old Trailer Jetter New

    my jetter has a 4130 pump and 25h kohler the manufacturer specks say 2k psi and 15 gpm .a higher psi would be great if the conversion would work w/my present motor. i do almost all 4" so lower gpm wont hurt . i am still figuring out this jetter game.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ace Sewer
    replied
    Re: Making an Old Trailer Jetter New

    Originally posted by SuperPro View Post
    These are just engine/motor horsepower capacity formulas. Torque is also the factor to consider. A gas engine produces peak hp & torque at certain & different rpm's. An electric motor produces peak hp & torque instantly upon start-up. This is why an electric motor will be less hp than a gas engine for the same application. The formula gpm x psi / 1100 is the minimum hp requirement, an may require bumping up a couple of hp. Let's say peak hp of a 20hp engine may be 3000 rpm, so running it at 1000 rpm just won't do the job, it may only be producing 15 hp or less.
    point taken, but look at the application; we run constant displacement pumps off small engines. you gear or belt drive or whatever to match the rpm of the engine to the rpm of the pump. small engines are usually set up to govern out at 3600 rpm, so youd gear it to hit 3600 rpm at the max rpm of the pump (or, if you are me, 3400 rpm so you can push your pump just a little when you want to).

    small engine tourque curves are real flat, so, yeah, at 1000 rpm the engine is not making near rated hp, but it doesn't have to, because it is only turning the pump at part speed, so the flow is lower, and the hp requirement is less.

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  • PLUMBER RICK
    replied
    Re: Making an Old Trailer Jetter New

    the numbers that are used are published numbers by the different manufactures of the pumps/ jetting equipment.

    a diesel engine having the most torque per hp is even a higher factor. more like 1895. according to us jetting. 4000 psi x 18gpm = 72,000 / 1895 = 38 hp + 4hp. to run the hydraulic pump for the reel.

    my engine is rated at 49.5 hp at 3000 rpm.

    although 1 hp should equal 1 hp. in reality the torque is the factor that must be considered.

    remember that the pump will deliver the stated volume at the given pump speed. the higher the speed the higher the volume. of course there is a limit to the speed/ rpm of a pump.

    now when you start to put the pump under load by raising the pressure on the discharge side, you also put the engine under load, thus decreasing the rpm as the load on the pump goes up.

    a gas engine has the least torque per hp while a diesel has the highest.

    just think of pulling a heavily loaded trailer such as a semi truck and trailer. diesel is the choice due to the power/ torque of the engine.

    so when sizing jetting pumps, make sure to look up the required hp and verify if it's listed as electric or gas. diesel then can be computed based on the formula.

    having too little hp will cause the engine to struggle and the pump to run slower. so either the gpm will drop on the lower rpm's or you drop the psi to allow for the rated gpm's and sacrifice the psi.

    most pumps will have a graph with a pressure/ gpm curve that shows the required hp for those figures.

    rick.

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  • Ace Sewer
    replied
    Re: Making an Old Trailer Jetter New

    the 1400 and 1100 numbers are about making the units (gpm,psi,horsepower) that flow, pressure, and power are expressed in work out. I think those numbers are cooked just a little for pump efficiency and for motor efficiency as well, because the theoretical number from converting the units is (I believe) 1714.

    its complicated to explain how those numbers arise, but if you are interested, here it is.
    1 gpm x 1 psi = 231 cubic inches per minute x 1 psi = 3.85 cubic inces per second x 1 psi = 3.85 inch-pounds per second = .321 ft-lb / second

    1 hp = 550 ft-lb/sec, so .321/550 = 1/1714

    so 1714 is the theoretical number to make the units work out right

    the 1100 for gas vs 1400 for electric reflects the difference in how gas and electric motors are rated. They are guestimates, but you mostly won't go wrong using them. For my location I have to further derate a gas engine because they don't make their rated power at this altitude.

    for example, the general j3055 I have is rated at 5.5 gpm at 3000psi. it is gas powered, so we use the 1100 number, and get from the formula that it needs an engine with 5.5 x 3000 / 1100 = 15 hp. It has a 16 hp engine, which bogs down and cannot provide the full specs of the pump at this altitude.

    I'm putting together a new one now, which is 5.5 at 4kpsi, and should need 20hp. I'm using a 23hp engine.

    this http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ is a good resource if you get interested in it.
    Last edited by Ace Sewer; 08-15-2011, 07:43 PM.

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  • SuperPro
    replied
    Re: Making an Old Trailer Jetter New

    I'm almost done building a jetter. It's going to be 11 gpm@3600 psi. The engine is a 38hp and it's going to have to turn at 3600 rpm, which is where it achieves max hp. So for less psi & gpm I'll just throttle it back.

    Leave a comment:


  • SuperPro
    replied
    Re: Making an Old Trailer Jetter New

    These are just engine/motor horsepower capacity formulas. Torque is also the factor to consider. A gas engine produces peak hp & torque at certain & different rpm's. An electric motor produces peak hp & torque instantly upon start-up. This is why an electric motor will be less hp than a gas engine for the same application. The formula gpm x psi / 1100 is the minimum hp requirement, an may require bumping up a couple of hp. Let's say peak hp of a 20hp engine may be 3000 rpm, so running it at 1000 rpm just won't do the job, it may only be producing 15 hp or less.

    Leave a comment:


  • SewerRatz
    replied
    Re: Making an Old Trailer Jetter New

    Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
    Thanks Ron. Where do the numbers 1440 and 1100 come from? What's behind them if you know what I mean?


    J.C.
    Beats the heck out of me. Guess there is some sort of physics involed. I know what you mean, I always like to know the long math behind numbers like that as well.

    Leave a comment:

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