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  • #16
    Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

    Wired specifially with these in mind taking power from an existing circuit. Mine all are wired together with 12/3 Romex with the white/black providing the power and the red being the interconnect which I belive is pretty normal, although I am far from being an expert. They all have 9V battery backups and beep every couple of minutes or so when the battery is low or AC power is lost, that latter being a bit annoying when we lose power but that is rare. There is a max number that can be connected together depending on how many are smoke detector only, CO, etc. The details are found on the specs of the brand you buy. Mine is maxed as I added in an additional two when building 2 new bedrooms in the basement.
    Still enjoying all 10 fingers!

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

      The home owner initially thought it great that you didn't need to worry about changing a battery, until I told him it still required one. Then I explained the battery lasted substantially longer if it was only the backup, and not powering the detector full time.
      wwsmith, 12/3 for detectors is a bit overkill, don't you think? Unless, of course, your whole house is 12 ga. and you've got 20A breakers...
      Wild Weasel, you could also run a seperate single strand to interconnect your units. Although, you may have a Code issue with running a conductor into a boxes that aren't on the same circuit, even though they aren't technically part of the circuit (they could become energised).

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

        Originally posted by mr. frugal View Post
        wwsmith, 12/3 for detectors is a bit overkill, don't you think? Unless, of course, your whole house is 12 ga. and you've got 20A breakers...
        Ya, my whole house is wired with 12ga on 20A breakers outside of the larger circuits for oven, furnace, etc of course.
        Still enjoying all 10 fingers!

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

          Ah... ok. So they do need dedicated wires running between then. Retrofitting the house just wouldn't be practical with that in mind.

          Thanks again, all!

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

            The Kidde Wireless AC Powered Smoke Alarm solves that problem
            may be made by other mfgs as well
            Licensed Philadelphia electrician
            Philadelphia emergency lighting certification

            Comment


            • #21
              Buried junctions (or anything close) should be soldered.

              For safety, keep all junctions in grounded metal boxes and use
              undamaged solid wire of the correct wire guage and use cable clamps
              that fit.

              There are many situations where wiring may be difficult to
              access. Most notably, it is difficult to access the wiring inside the
              junction boxes normally included several inches behind the can of a
              recessed lighting fixture (which itself is behind one or more pieces
              of trim mounted on drywall). As another example, wire splice kits
              labeled "for use behind drywall" are available at Home Depot. Outlets
              in hospitals may be inaccessible due to connected life-saving
              equipment. Traffic sensors are sealed underneath the pavement. In all
              of these situations, splices should be soldered.

              All of these situations can be handled legally and safely. Legally,
              NEC accessibility rules concern structural obstructions. Where the law
              is vague, many jurisdictions explicitly waive NEC accessibility rules
              for light coverings such as drywall, asphalt, etc. As for safety, an
              inaccessible box is generally safer than an accessible one. Especially
              if small children are around. A metal box is more puncture-resistant
              than the cable it replaces, and fire does not care if your box is
              accessible to a human or not. Safety is a non-issue, but legal
              questions sometimes arise. Ask your lawyer to be sure.

              Unfortunately, most electricians only know how to splice wires by
              twisting and nutting. Such junctions operate only through exposed wire
              surface (while solder forms metallurgical bonds). All exposed wire
              surface eventually corrodes. The corrosion is accelerated by sulfur
              gases from drywall which gets through openings in the tape. Some
              quick-connects used in recessed lighting fixtures are better than
              twist-and-nut because they maintain extreme pressure against the
              wires, which cuts through the corrosion. But beyond that, most
              electricians just twist-and-nut.

              Even worse, many electricians will use a very narrow definition of
              "buried box" which excludes anything that you might be willing to pay
              for (like recessed lights, so that they can steal your business
              without soldering), but includes anything that would save you lots of
              money (like repairing a small segment of a long buried cable). Report
              unscrupulous contractors to all applicable agencies.

              When I hire electricians, I first ask if they do high-reliability work
              for hospitals. If they say yes but they don't solder, then I just call
              their bluff (the county licensing department usually gets very
              interested).

              - junction_expert
              25 years electrical AND electronics experience

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

                From another perspective....

                If you do the repair and it's not covered by a building permit and/or licensed electrician you may have issues!

                If you happen to have a fire or for that matter any sort of damage that you require the homeowner's insurance to cover they will NOT
                cover the policy as they will claim an illegal electrical hook up!!!!

                I recently had to do some work in my home and the discussed this with the insurance company. They have no problems with "homeowner" type repairs and modifications but do stress building permits and Properly licensed professionals be utilized for major plumbing, electrical, HVAC etc....type work or they can void the policy and typically won't say anything until their inspector realizes improper non adherent to local code work has been done!

                I did the grunt work although perfectly capable of doing the entire project. I then paid a licensed electrician to inspect my work and do the final connections. With the permit and his license documenting the work my insurance company is satisfied.

                Penny wise and dollar foolish sounds like a trite saying, but I'd rather pay a licensed professional a few hundred dollars to verify the work than thousands that the insurance company won't pony up


                BE SAFE and SMART


                Cactus Man

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Buried junctions (or anything close) should be soldered.

                  Originally posted by mr. frugal View Post
                  Thanks for reminding me about the smoke detectors wbrooks! I had forgotten about them entirely. The amount of wire I was left with was too short to reach a pot light (and I didn't want to add any extra load to the severed wire circuit anyway) so the detector was perfect.
                  The guy I'm doing the work for wasn't thrilled with a hardwired detector, but I told him it was a good workaround to maintain Code compliance.
                  If you did not need that short section of cable you could have abandoned it, as long as it was disconnected and had no power.

                  Originally posted by junction_expert View Post
                  For safety, keep all junctions in grounded metal boxes and use
                  undamaged solid wire of the correct wire guage and use cable clamps
                  that fit.

                  Plastic boxes and stranded wire are acceptable in each case. What do you mean by this comment?

                  There are many situations where wiring may be difficult to
                  access. Most notably, it is difficult to access the wiring inside the
                  junction boxes normally included several inches behind the can of a
                  recessed lighting fixture (which itself is behind one or more pieces
                  of trim mounted on drywall). As another example, wire splice kits
                  labeled "for use behind drywall" are available at Home Depot. Outlets
                  in hospitals may be inaccessible due to connected life-saving
                  equipment. Traffic sensors are sealed underneath the pavement. In all
                  of these situations, splices should be soldered.

                  Splice kits are for modular homes where the walls have been pre-wired in the factory. The kit enables the installer to make connections between wall segments. This kit is not designed and is a violation of the NEC to be used anywhere but for their intended use, modular home sections.
                  Receptacles in hospitals that are inaccessible are also violations. I think you have the word inaccessible confused with something else. Inaccessible does not mean moving a cabinet or IV machine to access the recept. Behind drywall or any obstruction that does not allow for easy entry is inaccessible.
                  While soldering is a very good connection, it is a complete waste of time. Soldering is not something we do in this trade anymore. That meaning the construction trade.


                  All of these situations can be handled legally and safely. Legally,
                  NEC accessibility rules concern structural obstructions. Where the law
                  is vague, many jurisdictions explicitly waive NEC accessibility rules
                  for light coverings such as drywall, asphalt, etc. As for safety, an
                  inaccessible box is generally safer than an accessible one. Especially
                  if small children are around. A metal box is more puncture-resistant
                  than the cable it replaces, and fire does not care if your box is
                  accessible to a human or not. Safety is a non-issue, but legal
                  questions sometimes arise. Ask your lawyer to be sure.

                  Of course exceptions are made all the time. The NEC is full of exceptions. The examples you cite may or may not be under NEC jurisdiction. I seriously doubt my attorney has a clue about anything discussed on this forum.

                  Unfortunately, most electricians only know how to splice wires by
                  twisting and nutting. Such junctions operate only through exposed wire
                  surface (while solder forms metallurgical bonds). All exposed wire
                  surface eventually corrodes. The corrosion is accelerated by sulfur
                  gases from drywall which gets through openings in the tape. Some
                  quick-connects used in recessed lighting fixtures are better than
                  twist-and-nut because they maintain extreme pressure against the
                  wires, which cuts through the corrosion. But beyond that, most
                  electricians just twist-and-nut.

                  And your point?

                  Even worse, many electricians will use a very narrow definition of
                  "buried box" which excludes anything that you might be willing to pay
                  for (like recessed lights, so that they can steal your business
                  without soldering), but includes anything that would save you lots of
                  money (like repairing a small segment of a long buried cable). Report
                  unscrupulous contractors to all applicable agencies.

                  When I hire electricians, I first ask if they do high-reliability work
                  for hospitals. If they say yes but they don't solder, then I just call
                  their bluff (the county licensing department usually gets very
                  interested).

                  - junction_expert
                  25 years electrical AND electronics experience
                  I have been an apprentice electrician, a journeyman electrician and now a master electrician spanning over 35 years and have never ever used solder on one job. I have soldered many connections, just not during a construction or renovation projects.
                  What is your job? You hire electricians and ask them if they solder their wires? If they use other means of connection you do not hire them? There is no such rule and I am certain the (county licensing dept.) could care less how people connect there wires as long as it is an approved method and the connectors are approved for the application.


                  Licensed Electrician

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

                    > Plastic boxes and stranded wire are acceptable in each case. What do
                    > you mean by this comment?

                    It is against code to use stranded wire inside a wall. Very clearly
                    stated in the NEC. Some old buildings are grandfathered in, but new
                    work must use solid wire. Guage 6 and fatter excepted. Plastic boxes are inflammable. They may meet code but they're not as safe as metal boxes. Use only metal boxes and solid wire inside walls.


                    > Splice kits are for modular homes where the walls have been
                    > pre-wired in the factory.

                    There are many different kinds of splice kits. I was referring to the
                    ones that say "for use behind drywall". They have the big enclosure
                    and the anti-corrosive gel, and are only available in some
                    states. They're pretty good but it's easier and safer to use the
                    doubly-accessible *metal* boxes that come with the can lights as a
                    starting point.


                    > I have been an apprentice electrician, a journeyman electrician and
                    > now a master electrician spanning over 35 years and have never ever
                    > used solder on one job.

                    Good for you. Stay away from recessed lighting and my home.


                    >> wires, which cuts through the corrosion. But beyond that, most
                    >> electricians just twist-and-nut.
                    >
                    > And your point?

                    My point is simply that electricians are not known for making reliable
                    connections.


                    > You hire electricians and ask them if they solder their wires? If
                    > they use other means of connection you do not hire them?

                    Yes. I often desire reliable connections. Especially in difficult to
                    access places like the boxes behind can lights.


                    > There is no such rule. I am certain the (county licensing dept.)
                    > could care less how people connect there wires

                    You are wrong. Are you explicitly advising people to break the law?

                    Hospitals and other situations requiring high reliability have
                    stricter rules than the NEC. If you want to work in high-value
                    applications, you have a lot to learn.

                    I don't care how many years' experience an electrician has: it doesn't
                    make him an engineer.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      je

                      how about some chapter and verse from the nec. breid...............

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

                        Originally posted by junction_expert View Post

                        I don't care how many years' experience an electrician has: it doesn't
                        make him an engineer.
                        and being an engineer does not make one an electrician, or a carpenter, or a mechanic, or a fabricator and the list goes on, all it makes them is an engineer.

                        I have worked on much that an engineer and designers have designed and built, and I wish they would have started out on the practical end of things instead of the theory end of things, life could be so much simpler.

                        some of the crap that is made is not very workable or good in design or ease of use, or even doing its intend purpose,

                        No I am not knocking engineers, but it does not necessarily give them the practical experience that the field does, and there are many who are working in the field, may not be able to do the math in the calculations, but can do a very good job of making things work and work well.

                        All I am saying is you are gifted in your areas, and if you want soldered splices, that is fine, but don't knock some one who is doing it according to code, and has many many years of experience in there field.

                        yes I would say a solder joint is superior in some instances, but I sure would hate to return to the days of soldering ever splice, and not use the wire nuts, and in some instances I have found the wire nuts as an invaluable invention, as there removable with ease, and changes can be made in a mater of Min's if necessary,
                        Last edited by BHD; 04-09-2010, 07:27 PM.
                        Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
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                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

                          Originally posted by junction_expert View Post
                          > Plastic boxes and stranded wire are acceptable in each case. What do
                          > you mean by this comment?

                          It is against code to use stranded wire inside a wall. Very clearly
                          stated in the NEC. Some old buildings are grandfathered in, but new
                          work must use solid wire. Guage 6 and fatter excepted. Plastic boxes are inflammable. They may meet code but they're not as safe as metal boxes. Use only metal boxes and solid wire inside walls.

                          I never said you could use THHN or any other type of stranded wire in walls. But if you are using conduit, then you would use stranded wire. They do make THHN in solid which makes trimming out the devices much easier.
                          The rest of your paragraph is pure bunk. Where do you get your information?

                          > Splice kits are for modular homes where the walls have been
                          > pre-wired in the factory.

                          There are many different kinds of splice kits. I was referring to the
                          ones that say "for use behind drywall". They have the big enclosure
                          and the anti-corrosive gel, and are only available in some
                          states. They're pretty good but it's easier and safer to use the
                          doubly-accessible *metal* boxes that come with the can lights as a
                          starting point.

                          That makes sense except, connections made inside walls must be in boxes and accessible. Have you taken the opportunity to check and see if these so called splice kits are UL approved?

                          > I have been an apprentice electrician, a journeyman electrician and
                          > now a master electrician spanning over 35 years and have never ever
                          > used solder on one job.

                          Good for you. Stay away from recessed lighting and my home.

                          I have installed more can lights than I want to admit. And after discussing this with you, I would not ever do any work for you.


                          >> wires, which cuts through the corrosion. But beyond that, most
                          >> electricians just twist-and-nut.
                          >
                          > And your point?

                          My point is simply that electricians are not known for making reliable
                          connections.

                          You are casting quite a big net there. Who does make the best connection? Plumbers? No connection is fool proof. But I would say most connections are fine and compliant. That would include wire nuts, crimp sleeves and similar.


                          > You hire electricians and ask them if they solder their wires? If
                          > they use other means of connection you do not hire them?

                          Yes. I often desire reliable connections. Especially in difficult to
                          access places like the boxes behind can lights.

                          May I ask where you live and what kind of work do you do? If you were interviewing me, I would just have to have a good laugh and move on to an employer that knew something about this trade. I can see you have zero knowledge of this trade and its tradesmen.
                          Maybe if you quit your preaching and did some listening you may just learn something.

                          > There is no such rule. I am certain the (county licensing dept.)
                          > could care less how people connect there wires

                          You are wrong. Are you explicitly advising people to break the law?

                          There is no rule that prohibits the use of wire nuts, crimp connections or solder connections. If the product you are using is UL approved for the application than there is no issue. Law enforcement does not perform inspections.


                          Hospitals and other situations requiring high reliability have
                          stricter rules than the NEC. If you want to work in high-value
                          applications, you have a lot to learn.

                          I don't care how many years' experience an electrician has: it doesn't
                          make him an engineer.
                          Hospitals are inspected by the building departments or code departments. What makes you think a hospital does not follow NEC guidelines at minimum? The NEC is a minimum requirement. Hospitals are specifically addressed in the NEC and have many more rules than other structures. These higher standards are already addressed in the NEC and if a hospital wants to be a bit more aggressive, thats great, but not required outside the scope of the NEC.

                          Your post proves you should not be giving out electrical advice. You are a novice or you are just repeating something you heard. This is a non-professional forum and someone may actually take your advice in the future and either hurt or kill themselves or someone else.




                          Licensed Electrician

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

                            22+ years in medical electronics. I was the director of the Biomedical Engineering Departments in major hospitals in Chicago and Arizona.

                            I was also the safety officer at one major hospital....

                            I was VERY involved in electrical safety in new construction, remodels, and existing......I worked closely with the in house electricians and outside electrical contractors.

                            I have never ever seen any electrician solder any connection!
                            They do use UL listed, hospital grade, local and NEC code [specific to medical entities] to connect, repair, and splice....both in isolated power distribution, normal distribution and in explosive environments [old operating rooms as they used cyclopropane anesthesia.] etc.

                            Even while in the NAVY working on aircraft on a carrier we rarely soldered any wires!!!! OK we repaired cannon plugs using solder..but we had specific criteria in connecting two wires [splice] to where they did not want us to touch the bare copper while inserting into a splice as the oils on our hands can cause challenges. I was an AE and worked on the electrical and electronic systems of various aircraft!


                            If wire nuts are not safe then they would obviously not be allowed.
                            Be aware there are different types of wire nuts too.

                            For example:

                            some wire nuts have a metal insert thus you may not be required to twist the wires together before use as the metal insert accomplishes this. There are wire nuts without the metal insert and you must twist the wires to ensure both a mechanical and electrical connection.

                            Today the use of the wire nut without the metal insert is not recommended but still widely used.

                            There are special use wire nuts too, for example for aluminum wire etc.

                            Using the correct wire nut for the wire size and number of wires is critical. although quite often ignored and this is where trouble starts.

                            I have seen an electrician misuse wire nuts as he twisted them counter clockwise! He was quite angry with me when I showed him how to correctly use a wire nut!!!!


                            Using inline splices is a completely different animal..as more times than not the person never uses the correct crimping tool or is not familiar how to properly crimp the splice.

                            Connecting wires in wet areas and underground also requires a different technique. The power company for example uses a large splice that has silicon inside and Allen screws to secure the cable.
                            Then they use heat shrink over the entire splice to seal and waterproof the connection.


                            engineer huh?


                            Cactus Man
                            Last edited by cactusman; 04-11-2010, 06:25 PM. Reason: spelling error

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Je......yoohoo

                              STILL WAITING FOR THE CHAPTER AND VERSE IN THE NEC. je seems like he ain't. breid................

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

                                I was all ready to type a long and detailed reply as to why our new "junction expert" is full of hot air, but it is simply NOT worth it.

                                To anyone reading this, Mr. Expert is an engineer. This tells me he WAY over thinks things to the point where common sense has left the building.
                                I also get the impression that he is older than 60 years. This quote:
                                Originally posted by junction_expert View Post

                                When I hire electricians, I first ask if they do high-reliability work
                                for hospitals. If they say yes but they don't solder, then I just call
                                their bluff (the county licensing department usually gets very
                                interested).
                                ...tells me this.

                                A) What does doing work in a hospital have to do with it??? And how many guys actually work in hospitals? Not everyone is a large (typically union) shop. This the type of contractor that typically does work in hospitals.

                                B) NO ONE, repeat, NO ONE solders any more. They haven't for probably 50-60 years. Anyone that does today has no clue how to make a proper splice.

                                C) What does soldering have to do with being licensed??? This line is quite the joke.


                                Mr. Expert, please do not bother coming back with more engineering bullsh*t to tell me I don't know what I am doing. You sir are the one who is living in the 40's. The more you write here the more you prove you are out of touch with reality.
                                I know your type and I keep far away.

                                Besides, you dug up a THREE YEAR old thread to write all this gibberish.
                                Last edited by Speedy Petey; 04-10-2010, 09:57 PM. Reason: typo

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