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Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

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  • #31
    Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

    Dude, you are all over the net with this junk!!
    Must be a troll or you found something from the 40's that you are posting.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

      Thanks Speedy and JB for setting things straight. It's good to know we have some licensed professionals on this forum.
      Licensed Electrician

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

        NEC-compliant recessed light junctions are buried boxes. This is done
        for safety reasons. The materials that electricians use are not rated
        to a high enough temperature to be safe inside the same box that the
        lamp outlet is in. Another safety reason to bury boxes (apart from
        recessed lights) is to reduce electrocution hazard.

        The notion that a buried box's unexpectedness is a safety hazard is
        nonsense. A metal box is more puncture-proof than the buried cable it
        replaces. Period. In fact it is safest to shield each cable from
        puncture by building a box around it every time it crosses through a
        stud. The best electricians know this.

        The notion that a buried box can cause a fire is also nonsense. It
        wasn't the box that caused the fire, it was the gaping hole, the
        missing cable clamp, or the damaged cable. A fire does not care
        whether the box is accessible to a human or not. Making a box safer by
        making it more accessible is like making it safer by mounting a fire
        extinguisher next to it. You can put out the fire so it's safer. Any
        insurance company that refuses a claim solely based on a box being
        buried is merely illustrating its own ignorance.

        The problem with buried boxes is that when you put unreliable
        connections in them, it takes a long time to find and fix the
        problem.

        Making reliable connections requires an electrician with the right
        attitude. If you ask for a buried box and the electrician responds
        with second-guessing your engineering and the engineering of the
        recessed light design, debates about whether your recessed light is
        even a buried box, bogus safety scares, etc., then you are unlikely to
        get good results.

        On the other hand, if the electrician is responsive to your needs, and
        is honest about what he knows and doesn't know how to do, then it may
        not matter so much that he can't solder very well. For example, the
        failure rate of twisted junctions decreases exponentially with the
        number of twists. Therefore, a connection made with 2 twists (i.e.,
        stripping more than an inch off 14 guage wire) will be significantly
        more reliable than a connection made with one twist. Most electricians
        don't even know how to count twists. But many have a good attitude and
        are willing to learn.



        - junction_expert
        25 years electrical AND electronics experience

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        • #34
          je

          yada, yada, yada. does your mom know that you skippin school? breid....................

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

            It is as simple as this a buried splice in a wall or other that is not accessible is not legal according to the NEC.

            yes I have seen other people make buried splices and I have even found them when remodeling and your right for the most part as the splice if properly done is not dangerous, but regardless, it is against the law,

            part of the argument you using is if soldered there is no danger, but then you say the box will protect it, if the splice is not in danger then why house it in a box? why not just solder and tape it and let it hang in the wall? if all the connections are done correctly why use boxes, at all?

            You may not consider driving 10 mph over the speed limit as dangerous and most likely in many areas it is not, but it is still against the rules, so to post it is OK to do buried splices if done according to you is OK is not correct according to the power that be,
            Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
            attributed to Samuel Johnson
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

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            • #36
              Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

              Originally posted by junction_expert View Post
              NEC-compliant recessed light junctions are buried boxes.
              I'll quote Dwight Schrute here: "FALSE!"

              Recessed like boxes are NOT buried boxes. ALL recessed lights have either removable cans or some way to access the j-box through the ceiling hole. Period. End of story.

              Keep 'em coming Mr. "Expert".
              Forget what I said before, this is getting fun now.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

                He knows he cannot sell his childish ideas to the real professionals that have responded to his rhetoric. As you can see, he is gone. He most likely found another forum where they know no better. He should start here www.diychatroom.com. Maybe he can learn something there.
                Licensed Electrician

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

                  Originally posted by John Valdes View Post
                  He knows he cannot sell his childish ideas to the real professionals that have responded to his rhetoric. As you can see, he is gone. He most likely found another forum where they know no better. He should start here www.diychatroom.com. Maybe he can learn something there.
                  I doubt it, I think he knows it all already.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

                    A very interesting thread.

                    Back stabbed receptacles were designed by an engineer and we all know how well they worked out.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

                      aluminum wire for branch circuits another engineering marvel. space shuttle challenger. breid..............

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

                        I remember watching a video of a bridge that was built on the harmonics of the prevailing wind that whipped beneath it. Was shocked to see that bridge disassemble itself due to that engineering glitch. Hmmmm!
                        Seems to be a recurring pattern here!
                        Jim

                        Now where oh where is that engineer expert?
                        Last week I couldn't even spell inginer, now I are one! LOL

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

                          The Tacoma Narows Bridge. It was opened in mid 1940 and collapsed the end of the same year!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

                            Careful, there, guys.

                            Yes the splicing and box stuff has been very odd.

                            But before you start hammering away at an entire profession, please remember that engineers put men on the moon. With slide rules. They are responsible for just about every modern gizmo you own, including what you are looking at right now. And they are responsible for most of the tools, equipment and supplies that you use everyday to put beans on the table.

                            Breid, the space shuttle Challenger failed because the launch authority - non-engineering people - opted not to follow the advice of Morton-Thiokol engineers. The engineers very strongly recommended against the cold-weather launch precisely because of the temperature limits of the o-rings used in the solid rocket boosters. The design worked when used as intended. Any design is likely to fail when used outside its design envelope. Are you aware of the complexity of the technology in all areas, and the incredible aerospace engineering that went into the space shuttle? To this day there is no other flight vehicle on earth that compares to it, and the bloody thing is 30 years old! It's an utter freakin' marvel, certainly not anything to be held up as an example of poor engineering.

                            I'm not saying that every engineer knows everything or even knows what he is doing. On the internet, you can't even be sure that everyone that claims to be an engineer actually is one. Not every electrician knows what he is doing, either. Plenty of horror stories there. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

                            The problem with the Tacoma Narrows bridge was a phenomenon called "self-excited" or "self-induced" vibration. It was not well understood at the time, and very difficult to compute with a pencil -- which is what they had back then. A closely related phenomenon causes one type flutter seen on airplane control surfaces. Today, that bridge is used as "the" example of the problem in classes on structural dynamics. It wasn't a mistake or stupidity, they just didn't know much about it at the time. Possibly if you were there in the late 1930s designing that bridge, you would have discovered the problem, come up with a way to treat it mathematically and averted the entire disaster. But then again, maybe not... so let's not be so hasty - and disrespectful - to condemn. As time passes, the knowledge base in every field increases.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

                              Hmmmmmm!
                              I will consider myself chastised.
                              Jim

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Splicing into existing wiring, sans junction box.

                                Originally posted by JimDon View Post
                                Hmmmmmm!
                                I will consider myself chastised.
                                Jim
                                Jim, don't be too hard on yourself.

                                For every level headed easy to deal with engineer (Andy), there are ten pain in the a$$ ones out there.

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