Announcement

Announcement Module
Collapse

How To Post Images

Want to know the how to upload images to your posts? Image Posting Tutorial
See more
See less

Cold water bond

Page Title Module
Move Remove Collapse
X
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: Cold water bond

    I am often amazed how well electricians can find a waterline 5 feet deep.

    I could spend hours with a shovel and come up with nothing but give a sparky a 1/2" ground rod and a hammer he'll find that line no problem.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Cold water bond

      Originally posted by plumberscrack View Post
      I am often amazed how well electricians can find a waterline 5 feet deep.

      I could spend hours with a shovel and come up with nothing but give a sparky a 1/2" ground rod and a hammer he'll find that line no problem.
      We should ask "UNCLE MURPHY"

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Cold water bond

        OK, article 250.52 Grounding Electrodes in the
        2005 NEC (latest copy I have) reads something like this:

        --------
        250.52 Grounding Electrodes
        (A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding

        (1) A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the
        earth for 10 ft or more (including any metal well casing effectively
        bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically
        continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to
        the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and
        the bonding conductors. Interior metal water piping located more
        than 5 ft from the point of entrance to the building shall not be
        used as a part of the grounding electrode system [Bob D:
        emphasis added] or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes
        that are part of the grounding electrode system.

        Exception: In industrial and commercial buildings where conditions
        of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons
        service the installation, interior metal water piping located more
        than 5 ft from the point of entrance to the building shall be permitted
        as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to
        interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode
        system, provided that the entire length, other than short sections
        passing perpendicular through walls, floors, or ceilings, of the
        interior metal water pipe that is being used for the conductor
        is exposed.
        ----------


        The only thing about distance is that there shall be at least 10
        feet (or more) of pipe in direct contact with the earth and that
        the ground connection must be made within 5 feet of the point
        of entry of the water pipe into the building. And there can not be
        anything that could break the continuity of the connection such
        as a water meter. backflow device, pump, flanged connection
        (flanged connections make poor conductors), or non-conductive
        piping materials, UNLESS it such a component is jumped over with
        a bonding wire to ensure the pipe is electrically continuous. But I
        have (and I am sure you have also) seen too many cases where
        the bonding has been disconnected or the continuity broken, so my
        preference would be to see the ground connected at a point where
        nothing exists between the point of connection and the buried pipe
        that could compromise the ground.

        ONLY for industrial or commercial buildings (and only where properly
        qualified persons perform maintenance) can the ground connection
        be greater than 5 feet from the entrance of the water pipe into the
        building IF the entire length of the pipe being used as the ground
        conductor is exposed (short section passing through walls and floors
        permitted).

        I searched through the rest of it and could not find anything that
        says that a cold water pipe must be brought within some distance
        of the panelboard for grounding.

        Has anyone quoted you the section of the code that they are basing
        this on?

        Yes, it is cheaper (for the electrician) if you can bring your water pipe
        (at your expense) to within x number of feet of his panelboard. I have
        never heard of anything like this but I will ask one of the sparkys at
        work this week. I've worked on a number of large buildings in new construction,
        from at least a dozen schools, high-rise apartments, industrial facilities, to 2000
        room hotel casinos and don't remember anything like this being done.

        As other commented I can not see why the plumber is expected to
        bring his pipe to the panel. And too bad for the sparky if he didn't
        figure the extra wire into his bid.

        Also, the CYA (that would be their butts, not yours) statements that
        most A/Es put in their plans and specs will have the standard clause
        that all work must be performed IAW (in accordance with) applicable
        codes, regs, yadda, yadda. So even if they miss something YOU are
        the SME in your trade so YOU are supposed to catch these things and
        include them in your takeoffs and bids. No doubt Mark has a few
        stories along these lines of contract disputes that went to court.
        ---------------
        Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
        ---------------
        “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
        ---------
        "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
        ---------
        sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Cold water bond

          Bob,that is awesome,I have had to replace plastic water service and put 10' of copper to comply with code.Sharp inspector

          I am going to save this and put it with all the other info you have shared that I use.

          MY MAN,I'm going to have to open a folder just for your info

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Cold water bond

            Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
            Bob,that is awesome,I have had to replace plastic water service and put 10' of copper to comply with code.Sharp inspector

            I am going to save this and put it with all the other info you have shared that I use.

            MY MAN,I'm going to have to open a folder just for your info
            adam, do i have at least a "post it" note

            i did find your shovel bit. zeljka asked where the handle was

            rick.
            phoebe it is

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Cold water bond

              Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
              adam, do i have at least a "post it" note

              i did find your shovel bit. zeljka asked where the handle was

              rick.
              Did you tell her we just wrap tape around the shank

              Rick,Thank-you,I was having a hard time finding a 1-1/8 makita clay spade for under $100.00 with tax.

              I'm just going to make THANK-YOU as my forum signature as Iam writing it so many times a day

              I LOVE MY RIDGID FORUM

              ADAM

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Cold water bond

                Can someone explain to me why the Electricians are no longer posting here.

                Yes I tease them a lot in general,but I'm the same way with friends and family too.I have good friends that are sparkies.

                I don't consider myself any better than any man.Well... That is,any man that's better than me

                I want the electricians back that were here to insult PLUMBER a while back.And get the electrical aspect included back into the forum.

                By no means was I struggling here on this issue,I was hoping to get into electrical frame of mind a little bit.

                Adam

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Cold water bond

                  Drty

                  Good question about the loss of electricians. My guess is they don't feel welcome or such. I really wish Robert Wilber would come back and others.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Cold water bond

                    Originally posted by Woussko View Post
                    Drty

                    Good question about the loss of electricians. My guess is they don't feel welcome or such. I really wish Robert Wilber would come back and others.
                    Well that is going to make you and Bob a couple of really busy guys.along with the contractors over in W/W.

                    What a shame,Are we really perceived as a rude group when it comes to respecting the other trades.I know I have said some things that could be thought of as being dissrespectfull.

                    Or is it just a cats and dogs thing.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Cold water bond

                      I am not a master electrician but I am just finishing up 3 Warehouse Condos, 8 units in each buliding for a total of 24. At the end of the building where the meters cans, 800amp main disconnect and the house panels are located the plumbers were required to bring a pipe to us and we were required to bond the pipe, with the main ground from the ground rods all the way up to where they tie into with the neutral in the buildings 800amp disconnect with bare 3/0 wire.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Cold water bond

                        drty

                        Don't feel too bad about it. I doubt it's anything that one person did. I think that Josh needs to have the words "Electrical Forum" up along with Plumbing, Construction and Woodworking. My bet is the serious Sparky types are over on another forum wondering why none of us stop by to say hi.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Cold water bond

                          I don't know much about commercial/industrial but I'm fairly knowledgeable with residential electrical work.

                          I've never required any pipe ran near my service for grounding purposes. As the code states above, if the copper is run in the house it has to be grounded within 5ft of the entry point.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Cold water bond

                            Grounding, is the subject. all metal in a building shall be grounded: that includes building steel, gas lines( a very touchy subject) water lines shall all be tied together to form what the code calls, "The Grounding Electrode System". ( For example when the code came out and required the gas lines to be bonded, Our local gas company went ballastic. and the Electrical Inspectors would not enforce it. NOW, they consider the gas line being bonded via the connection to the furnace via the motor. and that section has been removed.)

                            When grounding a service all this is done to prevent damage due to Transient Over voltage from the utility, lightning. Grounding itself is not done to clear a fault.

                            That is the responsibility of the bonding conductor. In the section on definitions, the code clearly states that Ground and Grounding is a connection to the earth, or something that serves in place of earth. The earth by itself is a resistance and cannot be used for clearing a fault created somewhere up stream from the system. The code has inter mixed grounding with bonding and there is a lot of confusion. The continuous conductive path from a load back to the panel, which is grounded and bonded to the service neutral is what will clear a fault.

                            When they are including the water line in this system, the water line is to be grounded, via a bonding jumper. So that the water line cannot by accident become energised.

                            There are some cities that want the heating ducts grounded because they could become electrified.

                            The trouble with Electricity is, that it almost always works. The purpose of all of this is to safely clear a line to line or a ground fault in as short a time as possible. If the system can not clear a fault then it is useless.

                            Comment

                            Working...
                            X