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Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

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  • #16
    Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

    I just pulled a part a similar motor to yours and measured mine. The windings are 1&2, 3&4 each winding measures around 2 ohms due to capacitors in the picture, we are not actually measuring the individual windings at the electrical connection box. Your motor is definitely wired for 220V operation.

    120 operation as suggested L1 is connected to 1&3, L2 is connected to 2&4

    240 V operation L1 is connected to 1, L2 is connected to 4, 2&3 are bonded together

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

      Originally posted by wbrooks View Post
      120 operation as suggested L1 is connected to 1&3, L2 is connected to 2&4

      So, to properly hook it up to 120V, #1 and #4 get the same phase of 120V and #2 and $3 get the neutral?
      I guess this is the parallel set up where power goes through both sides, side by side?

      What is L1 and L2?
      L1 is 120V
      and
      L2 is neutral?


      Originally posted by wbrooks View Post
      240 V operation L1 is connected to 1, L2 is connected to 4, 2&3 are bonded together
      So 120V power goes in from one circuit #1, and another phase of 120V goes in the other circuit #4 and then #2 is connected to #3 instead of neutral?

      Now
      What is L1 and L2 for 240V?

      L1 is 120V of one phase
      and
      L2 is 120V of another phase?

      If this is right, I think got it!

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

        You got it

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

          Originally posted by archangel View Post
          So, to properly hook it up to 120V, #1 and #4 get the same phase of 120V and #2 and $3 get the neutral?
          I guess this is the parallel set up where power goes through both sides, side by side?

          What is L1 and L2?
          L1 is 120V
          and
          L2 is neutral?


          If this is right, I think got it!
          Wait a minute. 1 and 3 connect to 120v and 2 and 4 connect to the neutral for 120v operation.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

            Originally posted by bluecon View Post
            Wait a minute. 1 and 3 connect to 120v and 2 and 4 connect to the neutral for 120v operation.
            If #1 and #3 are on the same circuit, then hooking them both to 120 will do nothing.

            My test results are below again, and I do believe #1 and #3 are one circuit and #2 and #4 are the other circuit.

            Wires 1+2=0 but if I also wire nut 3+4 together I get 2.2

            Wires 1+3= 1.4 so this should be one circuit.

            Wires 1+4=0 but if I also wire nut 2+3 together I get 2.0 and was how it was hooked up running 110V.

            Wires 2+3=0 but if I also wire nut 1+4 together I get 3.8

            Wires 2+4= 1.4 and this should be the other circuit.

            Wires 3+4=0 but if I also wire nut 1+2 together I get 4.0

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

              Are you really measuring 0 ohms as in short circuit, or is it OL (open loop) as in infinite resistance.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

                Another thought, or question.
                #1 and #3 are one circuit.
                #2 and #4 are the other circuit.

                When going with 120V, does it matter if I hook #1 and #2 to the black and #3 and #4 to the white or swap them the other way?

                What about 240V?

                Can I hook it black to #1 then red to #2 and wiring #3 and #4 together?
                And what if----
                Can I hook it black to #1 then red to #4 and wiring #3 and #2 together?


                The reason I ask is that when wiring a wind powered 3 phase generator, there is a difference between the inner portion of the windings and the outer windings in the way it is wired to produce power because the phases need to be synchronized and I guess somewhat directional.

                Something like ==== push pull, push pull, push pull, ==== and not in a ==== push pull, pull push, push pull ==== sort of way?

                Because A/C just goes back and forth at the receiving end, does it matter which end of the winding is hooked to black or neutral?

                Is there a forward and backward like with D/C power?
                Last edited by archangel; 06-27-2008, 09:35 AM.

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                • #23
                  Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

                  Note that you will not get correct Ohm readings by calculating from the specified AC voltage and current. Your meter reads the DC resistance of the windings, which is way lower than the AC impedance @ 60Hz when the motor is running normally.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

                    Is there a forward and backward like with D/C power?
                    No and yes.

                    Although the motor will work the same if you invert the L1-L2 or Lx-N wire set, the polarity of the windings must match whether you wire them in series or parallel.

                    If you wire the two windings with opposite polarity, they will cancel out each other's magnetic flux in the stator. The motor will not work, and this will also draw excess current which the winding filament is not designed to carry continuously.
                    Last edited by Dummyload; 06-29-2008, 07:12 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

                      As far as it goes with wiring the generator... the 3 output phases are phased 120 degrees off each other. Whether you wire it in Wye (star) or Delta (triangle) you will need to match the right winding directions.

                      Let's assume that one lead of each winding goes to the "bottom" or connects to the first convolution, and one comes out the "top" or connects with the last convolution.

                      Wye is somewhat a parallel wiring, you would join the "bottom" leads to make a Neutral point, and the "top" leads as different phase outputs. Or vice versa, the polarity doesn't count as far as the winding directions are equal.

                      Delta is somewhat a serial wiring. You would join each "bottom" lead to the next "top" lead consecutively. While that would make a short circuit on DC (like car batteries), this is an AC generator and the phases are phased off each other, thus they will not be sporting three synchronously phased voltages at any angle of the rotor.
                      Last edited by Dummyload; 06-29-2008, 07:44 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

                        wbrooks & others

                        With motor windings you'll read a much lower DC resistance than their impedance at 60 Hertz AC. With this in mind you need a good VOM with a R x 1 range and a 12 Ohm center scale like a Simpson 260 has. A Triplett 630 would work well too. A more simple VOM isn't going to show the difference of 2, 5 and 10 Ohms. A Digital Multimeter normally isn't much good for this either.

                        This is starting to get totally crazy. Connect the black line 1 wire to motor lead #1. Connect the red line 2 wire to motor lead #4. Connect motor leads 2 & 3 together. WALLA you are ready to run it on 240 Volts AC. Wagner kept things simple for people wiring up this motor. Do be sure to connect up a grounding wire to the motor case/frame.
                        Last edited by Woussko; 06-29-2008, 07:58 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Re: General wiring question, and some reassurance.

                          Thanks for all the info on getting my motor wired.
                          The snow has melted a few times and the garage is warm enough to allow me to finish the rest of the wiring.

                          I added another switch box with a duplex outlet and a switch for operating the motor while moving the original motor switch box just below it and wired it to operate the light.

                          The question comes about the neutral and grounding wires.

                          The 120V system has 3 wires, 1 black power wire, one white neutral and one green or bare ground wire.

                          The 240 volt system has 2 power wires @120V each (one black and one white) but at different phases, and a ground.

                          I see in the relay/fuse box that the neutral wires go to the same place as the ground wires do.

                          So, I wired the motor with the 2 power wires but the ground wire went to the case as well as to the frame of the whole unit.

                          Then I wired the outlet and light switch, but there was no neutral so I wired it to the frame, and for some reason I felt concern about touching the frame and getting shocked!

                          I guess I look at the system as power in the black wire and out the white wire with the ground as the back up, and with the white going to the case I expect it to be powered up.

                          I flicked all the switches and everything worked as expected with the exception that the motor sounded a hell of a lot more powerful than I expected!
                          Well, it was wired the same as before but then it was only running on 120V.

                          Can I get some reassurance that all is well with neutral and ground coming together before the relay/fuse box?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: General wiring question, and some reassurance.

                            On a 240 volt setup, you do not have a neutral wire. It is not uncommon to use a white wire as a hot in a cable like romex.
                            You can not use a receptacle for 120 volts to supply 240 volts.
                            Did you wire the motor for 240 volts, or 120 volts?

                            The ground and neutral bond together at the first disconnect in a system, which is why you see the neutral and grouns in the main panel.
                            They should never be together after they leave the panel.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: General wiring question, and some reassurance.

                              Originally posted by jbfan View Post
                              On a 240 volt setup, you do not have a neutral wire. It is not uncommon to use a white wire as a hot in a cable like romex.
                              The black is one phase of hot, the white is the other hot.

                              Originally posted by jbfan View Post
                              You can not use a receptacle for 120 volts to supply 240 volts.
                              It was a duplex outlet and I separated the two plugs on both sides and have them each running on one of the phases of the 240V, so each side of the plug is only 120V.

                              Originally posted by jbfan View Post
                              Did you wire the motor for 240 volts, or 120 volts?
                              I wired it for 240V (as it was wired when I got it) and it sounds so much more powerful than before as it was only running on 120V, even though the original switch is a 240V switch.

                              Originally posted by jbfan View Post
                              The ground and neutral bond together at the first disconnect in a system, which is why you see the neutral and grounds in the main panel.
                              They should never be together after they leave the panel.
                              It has an original (1930"s?) 120V light so by running the motor on 240V with no neutral wire, I have no neutral for the 120V portion of the machine, just the ground.
                              All the original wiring was so old that the insulator cracked when the wires were moved and that was not good with the light cord in the metal sheath!

                              I guess that just rubs me the wrong way and the voice in my head is screaming "DON'T TOUCH THAT" even though I see that the neutral is connected to the ground, and grounding is basically grounding, right?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

                                Grounding is basically grounding? NO
                                That neutral is a CURRENT CARRYING wire. It is NOT and will NEVER be a grounding conductor. Do Not treat a neutral like a ground. Never.
                                And in a 240 volt feed to a home, you only have 1 phase. You do not have two separate phases (although some mistakenly believe that) You have two legs of 120 volts each.
                                Jim Don
                                Last edited by JimDon; 04-10-2009, 08:17 PM.

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