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  • #31
    Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

    Originally posted by JimDon View Post
    Grounding is basically grounding? NO
    That neutral is a CURRENT CARRYING wire. It is NOT and will NEVER be a grounding conductor. Do Not treat a neutral like a ground. Never.
    OK then.
    I have a powder coating oven, a MIG welder, and now a drill press and they all run on 240V(out of a 3 wire outlet) as well as some portion (indicator lights, cooling fan, light bulbs, whatever) that runs on 120V.

    The question is......
    How do they run the 120V portions without the neutral wire, as the device is powered off the 240V plug that has one ground and two power wires?


    Originally posted by JimDon View Post
    And in a 240 volt feed to a home, you only have 1 phase. You do not have two separate phases (although some mistakenly believe that) You have two legs of 120 volts each. And they are phased the same.
    Jim Don
    I don't under stand something.
    If in alternating current the current swings up and down, and the 120V is the average between the maximum and minimum voltages.
    So if two power wires are on the same phase they are the same and they are 120V, even if there are one, two, or fifty supply sources.

    Now with 240V there are two neighboring phases and the key to the higher voltage is where the two phases overlap, the voltage reads as higher because instead of dropping down on the original phase, it is picked up by the second phase before it drops so it dwells at a higher average voltage and reads as 240V.

    So, I don't see how in a household 240V system that is supplied from the power line with one neutral wire and two 120V power wires in two different phases can have 240V on only on one phase?

    I know that the average home is supplied with 2 different phases of power with 3 wires and the typical small business is that has 3 different phases is supplied with 4 wires.

    Check the 2 supply lines going into the breaker box and you will see there are on supply lines giving more than 120 Volts!

    They don't commonly refer to 240V as 2 phase, but it is.

    So, my question was...

    How do they run the 120V portions without the neutral wire, as the device is powered off the 240V plug that has one ground and two power wires and no neutral wire for the 120V?

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

      Archangel,
      I think you're confusing being in or out of phase with synchronization.

      In a typical residential circuit, it is a single phase supply with 1, 120 v leg, a second 120 v leg and a neutral leg. Each of those legs is also considered to be a "side" since you have those two large copper buss bars in your breaker box or a left and a right side. When you combine those two hots (remember this is AC current here, not DC so it is alternating between positive and negative 60 times per second) one hot is 180 degrees out of synch with the other hot. In essence one side is positive while the other is negative thus completing the pathway of the 240 v circuit without the need for the neutral conductor carrying current back.

      In a typical, industrial 3-phase set-up, you have THREE separate transformers each providing one 277 volt phase. Each is 120 degrees away from each other. If you were to measure from one leg to ground or to neutral, you would measure 277 volts. If you measure from one leg to another or to all three, you will read 480 volts. Remember Ohms Law here in that you have a 1.73 multiplier to take into consideration.

      There is no such animal as two -phase. It is either the single phase described above or three-phase. But that two-phase misunderstanding of home electrics is very common among lots of folks.
      Cheers,
      Jim Don

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

        Originally posted by JimDon View Post
        Archangel,
        I think you're confusing being in or out of phase with synchronization.

        In a typical residential circuit, it is a single phase supply with 1, 120 v leg, a second 120 v leg and a neutral leg. Each of those legs is also considered to be a "side" since you have those two large copper buss bars in your breaker box or a left and a right side. When you combine those two hots (remember this is AC current here, not DC so it is alternating between positive and negative 60 times per second) one hot is 180 degrees out of synch with the other hot. In essence one side is positive while the other is negative thus completing the pathway of the 240 v circuit without the need for the neutral conductor carrying current back.

        In a typical, industrial 3-phase set-up, you have THREE separate transformers each providing one 277 volt phase. Each is 120 degrees away from each other. If you were to measure from one leg to ground or to neutral, you would measure 277 volts. If you measure from one leg to another or to all three, you will read 480 volts. Remember Ohms Law here in that you have a 1.73 multiplier to take into consideration.

        There is no such animal as two -phase. It is either the single phase described above or three-phase. But that two-phase misunderstanding of home electrics is very common among lots of folks.
        Cheers,
        Jim Don
        Confusing phase with synchronization?

        Would two things that are in phase also be considered in synchronization?
        Would two things that are out phase also be considered out of synchronization?

        ARGH!

        HEY, WAIT A MINUTE!
        Would you by any chance be related to the guy that thought up algebra?
        I still have issues with algebra!
        Last edited by archangel; 04-11-2009, 03:13 PM.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

          So, can anyone explain how a piece of equipment that runs off a 240V three prong plug that also uses 120V power and there is no neutral wire?

          I can only assume the neutral and ground are being used one and the same, just like I wired my tapper/drill press.

          So, if it's safe to use my electric oven, my MIG welder, and all those other devices that operate both voltages off that 240V, 3 prong plug, my tapper should be ok as well, right?

          I wired the 120V system for the light as if the tapper frame was the breaker box, with the neutral and ground coming together there.
          The 240V motor was wired with the motor case grounded and then the ground wire meeting the frame and then to the breaker box.

          It's easy to understand a D/C system (power in and power out) like pressure in a hydraulic hose, but the current in an A/C system is supposed to go back and forth.

          I have always assumed that a 240V motor needs the ground to run just like a 120 system used the neutral that completes the circuit?

          I was just wondering (yeah, right now as I was typing this) if the 240V system might run on the two power wires alone (IE, that back and forth with the current between the two power wires rather than power in and power out like the D/C system).

          I never though to test the 240V system to see if the ground were there only as a safety (to prevent accidental grounding and shock).

          Any educational input out there?

          I am in need.
          Last edited by archangel; 04-16-2009, 04:14 PM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

            Archangel,
            Asked and answered!!

            " In essence one side is positive while the other is negative thus completing the pathway of the 240 v circuit without the need for the neutral conductor carrying current back. "

            Neutral and ground are never ever bonded together outside the main panel. A neutral is a CURRENT carrying conductor. It is not a ground and will never be a ground. That is why it is insulated. Also, a ground does not have to be insulated (can be bare) and the ground can be one size smaller (in most cases) than the current carrying conductors in that particular circuit.

            In newer range, oven and dryer circuits, there are two hots, a neutral and a ground. The neutral is added in that circuit to complete one of the 120 v legs for 120 volt applications in the appliance like a light or timer or other small incidental.

            Cheers,
            Jim
            Last edited by JimDon; 04-16-2009, 07:54 PM.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

              Originally posted by JimDon View Post
              Archangel,
              Asked and answered!!

              " In essence one side is positive while the other is negative thus completing the pathway of the 240 v circuit without the need for the neutral conductor carrying current back. "

              Neutral and ground are never ever bonded together outside the main panel. A neutral is a CURRENT carrying conductor. It is not a ground and will never be a ground. That is why it is insulated. Also, a ground does not have to be insulated (can be bare) and the ground can be one size smaller (in most cases) than the current carrying conductors in that particular circuit.

              In newer range, oven and dryer circuits, there are two hots, a neutral and a ground. The neutral is added in that circuit to complete one of the 120 v legs for 120 volt applications in the appliance like a light or timer or other small incidental.

              Cheers,
              Jim
              OK, then how do I wire my 240V tapper motor and the 120V light off the 3 wire 240V plug?
              None of the ovens or dryers I have installed (and I just installed a new electric dryer a few weeks ago) had more than 3 wires, and they are all using standard 240V plugs.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

                At one time ground was used as neutral with ranges and dryers. It's not safe but it was done. The idea was to always connect the case to a cold water pipe for grounding. People did some very wild things to save some $$$.

                There is a safer way which is to use a transformer to step down 240 to 120 Volts when you don't have a neutral conductor. It can be done with a single winding autoformer as well. Your best bet if it's reasonable to do so would be to rewire so you have 2 hots, a neutral and a ground conductor.

                Line 1 = black
                Line 2 = red
                Neutral = white
                Ground = green or bare

                Some devices are wired so you use 2 different circuits. A 240 only and a 120 only. One or both will have a grounding conductor. If both have a grounding conductor they need to be connected together at both ends.

                This is where you best get the help of a good electrician. It's all too easy to end up on the dangerous side of things.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

                  Well, unemployment does not pay well enough to rewire it all over again with a 4 wire cable all the way from the breaker to the garage, then to the equipment.

                  I'd be replacing about 75 feet of cable!

                  Have you priced that size of cable since the price of copper shot sky high?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

                    Bet it is cheaper than the price of a coffin!
                    Since you likely have a few 120V outlets in the garage just rewire the device to use two plugs. Separate the 120 and 240 components and bring them out to two plugs.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

                      Originally posted by wbrooks View Post
                      Bet it is cheaper than the price of a coffin!
                      Cute, but all I get are veiled warnings and creative hints.
                      It frustrates me when people make statements without backing it up with the "WHY" of the reason.

                      A guy asks me "why can't I run my engine without oil"?

                      I might say "because you will destroy it"
                      But I would not just leave it at that.
                      I would also be ready to explain exactly how the oil acts as a bearing between the crankshaft and the main bearings soft surface and without it there will be no lube, the bearings soft surface will over heat and excessive friction will then destroy all the bearing surfaces.

                      Why is a question I most often use in my life, and am most often disappointed by the lack of an appropriate answer.
                      Last edited by archangel; 04-21-2009, 06:17 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

                        Why? You were already told that the grounding conductor is one wire size smaller than the hots so you can safely feed more current than you can safely return. As an example if you are using 12 gauge wire you are connected to a 20 A breaker however the ground is only 14 gauge so it can only support 15A. How about safety? The grounding conductor is not designed to carry current in a properly operating system. It is designed to carry current to short the breaker and turn it off in the event of a system failure. In your situation lets say you have a beer fridge plugged in downstream of your wiring job and that the ground wire becomes loose between your device and the panel. Since you have one hot wired through a bulb to ground; the ground is now at 120V potential and that potential is on the metal fridge door and handle. Stand in a puddle and the light bulb will glow as the current travels through it, your heart and then to ground (the floor or earth). Yes there are a bunch of things that need to go wrong but you created a huge first step by using ground as a neutral.
                        My creative hint costs you the price of a lamp cord that you likely have lying around. BTW if you use lamp cord there is a right and wrong way to wire that. The hot wire must be wired to the center electrode of the lamp socket. We do this so that when the bulb burns out and you change it with the power on you will not come into contact with 120V potential on the threads on the bulb
                        Last edited by wbrooks; 04-22-2009, 10:04 PM. Reason: correcting content

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

                          Originally posted by wbrooks View Post
                          Why? You were already told that the grounding conductor is one wire size smaller than the hots so you can safely feed more current than you can safely return. As an example if you are using 12 gauge wire you are connected to a 20 A breaker however the ground is only 14 gauge so it can only support 15A.
                          The 25 feet of wire I purchased is 12/3 Carol water resistant, says 600V and measures 5/8" OD.
                          I got it for my 240V Lincoln SP170T MIG welder and the powder coat oven (standard older electric kitchen oven) and was assured by the seller that it would be sufficient for either of the applications.

                          Originally posted by wbrooks View Post
                          How about safety? The grounding conductor is not designed to carry current in a properly operating system. It is designed to carry current to short the breaker and turn it off in the event of a system failure. In your situation lets say you have a beer fridge plugged in downstream of your wiring job and that the ground wire becomes loose between your device and the panel. Since you have one hot wired through a bulb to ground; the ground is now at 120V potential and that potential is on the metal fridge door and handle.
                          The only thing that might be run off the outlet would be either a hand drill or perhaps a drop light as it's mounted to the body of the drill press.
                          Also, it is a dedicated line from the breaker box to the end tool, and what it powers depends on if I plug in the MIG, oven, or the drill press, into the 3 pole 50 amp plug.


                          Originally posted by wbrooks View Post
                          Stand in a puddle and the light bulb will glow as the current travels through it, your heart and then to ground (the floor or earth). Yes there are a bunch of things that need to go wrong but you created a huge first step by using ground as a neutral.
                          I know all about that, well, the feral cats in my old neighborhood that is.
                          After having various things in my garage knocked over several nights in a row by them getting in and fighting, I placed a bowl of gravy on a metal plate and the circuit was completed when they stood on the plate and touched the "food" in the ceramic bowl.
                          I only used a 40 watt bulb, but it worked great!

                          Originally posted by wbrooks View Post
                          My creative hint costs you the price of a lamp cord that you likely have lying around.
                          True, I do have some old extension cords the ex-wife cut with a Hedge Hog trimmer and if I ever get the garage situated, I could run the two power cords down from the celling, but the mechanical fact as to why is still hanging there and gnawing at me .

                          Originally posted by wbrooks View Post
                          BTW if you use lamp cord there is a right and wrong way to wire that. The neutral must be wired to the center electrode of the lamp socket.
                          Are you sure about that?


                          Originally posted by wbrooks View Post
                          We do this so that when the bulb burns out and you change it with the power on you will not come into contact with 120V potential on the threads on the bulb
                          I just looked it up to verify and the neutral is the wider side of the outlet and connects to the silver screw and that leads to the threaded side of the light socket.
                          The thinner outlet prong is the "HOT" and it goes to the "HOT tab" in the light socket.
                          So it looks like you got that last one backwards.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

                            Your right I messed up, was thinking hot and wrote neutral. The explanation is correct. I will correct it in the post so as not to confuse people. 12/3 is fine for the MIG and ok for just the oven if no top burners are used at the same time. The point about the 12/3 is that the ground wire that you are now using as a power return is only 14 gauge even though the power wires are 12 gauge(measure it if you doubt me).
                            You sure it is 12/3? If it is than you can wire everything properly. 12/3 has black, white, red and bare.
                            Last edited by wbrooks; 04-22-2009, 10:07 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

                              Originally posted by wbrooks View Post
                              Your right I messed up, was thinking hot and wrote neutral. The explanation is correct. I will correct it in the post so as not to confuse people. 12/3 is fine for the MIG and ok for just the oven if no top burners are used at the same time. The point about the 12/3 is that the ground wire that you are now using as a power return is only 14 gauge even though the power wires are 12 gauge(measure it if you doubt me).
                              You sure it is 12/3? If it is than you can wire everything properly. 12/3 has black, white, red and bare.
                              Nope, there were only 3 wires, red, black and green.
                              It is bright yellow and has this stamped on it.

                              Carol 12/3 105C UL WATER RESISTANT SOOW CSA -40C FT-2 P123-103 MSHA MADE IN USA 600V

                              Could I just use a plastic spiral wire wrap and add an additional wire running the length of it for the ground and just use the green as the 120V neutral?

                              No, wait!
                              Then I would need to replace all 4 of the 3 prong 50A plugs and the one outlet with a complete set of 4 pronged plugs and an outlet!

                              The ovens top coils were removed for shop safety just in case they were accidentally turned on with something sitting on top of it, and there is only one 240V outlet so I only run one 240V device at a time.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Antique 1 hp wagner motor wiring question.

                                Adding a wire to the outside is not really code but is likely safer than not having it, I have done this myself on a generator setup at my house until I acquired the proper 4 wire cable. The stranded wire extension cords (SOJ, SOO, etc) are an exception to the smaller ground wire rule as well. They are all the same size. For future reference it would have been way cheaper to run NMD90 12/3 (the stuff with the white plastic sheath) from the main panel to a junction box with a receptacle in the garage and then short runs of SOOW from the machines to the plug. NMD90 12/3 has 3 conductors and a ground. This assumes you have normal 2X construction with access to the studs to run the wire. For future you may also consider running NMD 90 8/3 (40 A) or 6/3 (60A) and adding a pony panel in your garage. The SOO makes dandy extension cords, I have a couple of locations in my garage where the SOO is mounted directly to the wall from octagon boxes that way the extension cord can never be lost or borrowed.

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