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  • #31
    Re: Hooking up generator

    This is for John Valdes, BHD and JimDon and others. Either this will make sense or it won't but this is something to check out sometime.

    A) This is 2 back to back 100 Amp 2 pole breakers with a handle interlock. -- http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...6624_200196624

    B) Same but with 2 back to back 60 Amp breakers -- http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...6574_200196574

    C) Try clicking this link and prowling around. You'll find lots of items to check out.
    http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w..._36+968+280092

    D) This is what several friends that have small places out in the country had installed. YES, You can run 240 Volt loads like water pumps along with several 120 Volt loads. Installation is pretty easy and if you add a Power Inlet outside connecting up your generator is simple. (This one has a power inlet on it, but the same type can be ordered for use with a remote power inlet.)
    http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...1033_200321033

    E) What is a Power Inlet? Maybe this will help and remember there are variations on these depending on your electrical requirements. -- http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...0924_200220924


    Some good careful thinking of locations and just what needs to be powered can make the difference between an easy to use and safe setup or a grand mess.


    Note for electrical contractors: You should be able to find a good wholesale electrical supplier in your area that's setup to buy direct from either Reliance Controls or from Gen-Tran. Northern is handy but you should be able to get better pricing. In addition you can make up your own special connecting cords as needed.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Hooking up generator

      Woussko

      I have wondered about using that type of breaker box as a transfer switch, but now ever thing has to be "approved" and had never seen one set up that way, Or "approved".

      yes I think the price of many of the switches are way over priced, as if you compare them to a disconnect there much higher,

      I bought mine off of Ebay, a 250 amp three phase unit, I think the shipping was as much as I payed for the box, but the retail on that size of box was unbelievable,

      actually I ended up buying two transfer boxes off of Ebay I have a second box in the generator shed to be able to switch between the two generators. the second box was a new 100 amp transfer switch I think I payed less than $100 for it.

      I am guessing right now you would not get any bargains on Ebay, but wait until spring and the storms are over and people are not worried about there power going off and my guess is the prices will come down "in the off season".

      but if one is going to put in a whole house or farm transfer switch it must be as large as what the rating on the main disconnect is or greater,
      Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
      attributed to Samuel Johnson
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Hooking up generator

        Originally posted by BHD View Post
        yes your technical correct, on the term, what I was pointing out is if you use an interlock kit and it is set up correctly, with the approved input set from the generator it is not any thing like being Back feeding through the dryer out let or similar, in it safety,

        as first you have the interlock, so only the one breaker can be on at once, ( I am not sure our power suppler would approve of the system, as it can easily be defeated by removing the cover of the panel, and as stated in there brochure which I posted above they indicate they do not trust the breaker), and that the power supply cord and receptacle is of the proper type, not having an exposed set of blades that could be hot.

        and from what I can find any breaker that is "back fed" is to fastened in place. I would think that would apply in a interlock kit situation.
        I guess we can agree on this. Not sure about fastening the "back fed" breaker. I think that only applies to main breakers, but you could be right. I will check on that in the code book. It does make sense and you brought up a very good point.

        Any safety device can be defeated. It is our job as professionals that we make it as hard as possible.

        I would never install an interlock kit for an old lady or customer that has no idea how to handle their household loads. Since this is a tradesman's forum, thats why I suggested it. I would never suggest this to a DIY'er.
        If thats the case here in this forum, please let me know. This way I can be more careful about the advice I give out.
        Thanks John
        Licensed Electrician

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Hooking up generator

          you could get a ganerator panel that will make it safe for the linesman and yourself . they are very easy to hook-up and you only need to have on that panel the important circuits.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Hooking up generator

            I am going to buy a Ridgid RD8000 generator today at Home Depot before the 12 month interest free runs out. I am going to eventually have a transfer switch installed with it. Right now I have a question on the load. I was going to hook up my 2 refrigs, 1/3 HP sump pump, furnace (TRANE XR90) and condenser (TRANE XR12 4ton unit) to this generator. With the 8K watt running and the 10K startup specs, will this generator be enough to handle everything? I have looked at the external house generator Kohler 12KW but they want $10K for the unit and installation which is too high for me right now. I figure I can buy this now and eventually have a transfer switch installed to handle the furnace and AC unit. Any help with this?

            Also, I read in another forum, that somebody was looking into buying a muffler or some type or device to make it quieter. Does anybody have an update on this mod or know if it can be done? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Hooking up generator

              Originally posted by JimDon View Post
              To BHD,
              Thank you for the post on the transfer switch. You may have just saved the life of a lineman, somewhere in the United States. To all others out there considering doing this: Don't, unless you really know what you are doing, understand the NEC, and can do it by the book, and I really mean by the book. If any of you are considering making a double ended extension cord to plug into a 240 volt dryer outlet (the fact that many believe their current is 220v, 230v or 225v tells me a lot all by itself), please do not do it. That cord is called a widowmaker, and for a very, very good reason. And if you do not know why it is a widowmaker, think about it for a moment and see if you can come up with an answer, please -- before you do it. Do not ever try to backfeed a genset into an outlet, 120v, or a dryer or stove outlet, 240v. You will cause a potentially very dangerous situation by feeding that way.
              With all that said,
              Cheers,
              Jim Don
              Well said and thanks alot,The other person went through alot of trouble just to give bad advise on how to do this wrong. A generator without an interlock is illegal. period.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Hooking up generator

                Originally posted by Jerad View Post
                yes and no it can be done. but you can get leaks from the power co. or back feeding even when the main breaker is off. i have seen it. check your breaker. how big is you generator?
                i use a 7,500 watt 30 amp. to power my whole house. i'm very "green" when it comes to my house. i used to be generator only, till power came out here. now i use it for backup.
                How does leakage pass through the breaker if the contacts are open? The ground remains connected, but the two hot sides are disconnected.

                Howard Ferstler

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Hooking up generator

                  I doubt it does or can, I am not aware of it happening, but I have read statements like that many a time, but have not found any documents that really supports that, statement

                  there are a lot of poor breakers that exist, Old, breakers that one have had recalls and counterfeit breakers of quality name brand units, some of the breakers some times are hard to determine what is on and off, and I am sure Murphy's law applies on breakers as well, and unlike a bladed switch there is no visual way to confirm that the contacts have disconnected,

                  for it to leak back my guess would be human error is the main cause. but it is serious enough to kill a person so it is not some thing to mess with,

                  one more thing kinda off subject, (it is not totally prohibited, but not condoned, either by the NEC), breakers do switch power, but unless rated are not designed or to be used as switches, and the switch rated breakers to my knowledge are only single pole breakers, marked SWD and is normally used in a commercial lighting system.
                  Electrical Circuit Breakers
                  Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                  attributed to Samuel Johnson
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Hooking up generator

                    Originally posted by Howard Ferstler View Post
                    How does leakage pass through the breaker if the contacts are open? The ground remains connected, but the two hot sides are disconnected.

                    Howard Ferstler
                    Originally posted by BHD View Post
                    I doubt it does or can, I am not aware of it happening, but I have read statements like that many a time, but have not found any documents that really supports that, statement

                    there are a lot of poor breakers that exist, Old, breakers that one have had recalls and counterfeit breakers of quality name brand units, some of the breakers some times are hard to determine what is on and off, and I am sure Murphy's law applies on breakers as well, and unlike a bladed switch there is no visual way to confirm that the contacts have disconnected,

                    for it to leak back my guess would be human error is the main cause. but it is serious enough to kill a person so it is not some thing to mess with,

                    one more thing kinda off subject, (it is not totally prohibited, but not condoned, either by the NEC), breakers do switch power, but unless rated are not designed or to be used as switches, and the switch rated breakers to my knowledge are only single pole breakers, marked SWD and is normally used in a commercial lighting system.
                    Electrical Circuit Breakers

                    I'm no electrician but it sounds like what you two guys are talking about is stray voltage. I find it from time to time. When I cut water mains in a homeowners yard or in a crawlspace I like to use jumper cables to bond the pipe and then cut the pipe in the middle. I do this because I have cut them before and you get a pop and an arc......and a SHOCK. I have heard it can kill you and I believe it.

                    I believe its from an appliance or the electrical system in general not being properly grounded or a malfunctioning appliance sending current to ground. The neutrals and the grounds are all bonded together in the main panel. Even with the power meter removed the neutral is still bonded in the meter socket. I suspect thats why it can backfeed to the pole if somthing else is wrong even with the main breaker turned off.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Hooking up generator

                      This product makes me think that the main breaker is probably a reasonable device as far as the switching mechanism, but clearly it has the potential for error. This isn't a perfect analogy, because there is a second breaker for the backfeed that is changing as well, but I can't see why the backfeed breaker would be any better than the main breaker. Without the interlock, clearly there is a much higher chance for something to go wrong and that can have life/safety consequences.

                      Generator InterLock Kit

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Hooking up generator

                        Originally posted by Craig Moore View Post
                        Is is ok to turn off the main power disconnect, turn off all the other breakers, plug a generator into the 220 receptacle for your electric dryer, then turn on the breakers you need to run.
                        No it is absolutely wrong and very dangerous! Dangerous to you and others. First to plug into a dryer receptacle you have a plug which is live from the generator and is rightly called a "suicide cord". You need a generator lockout kit or a transfer switch that prevents the main breaker (or disconnect) from being turned on while the gen set is in operation. Otherwise you could back feed to the street and kill a power company worker.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Hooking up generator

                          Originally posted by TheMaster View Post
                          I'm no electrician but it sounds like what you two guys are talking about is stray voltage. I find it from time to time. When I cut water mains in a homeowners yard or in a crawlspace I like to use jumper cables to bond the pipe and then cut the pipe in the middle. I do this because I have cut them before and you get a pop and an arc......and a SHOCK. I have heard it can kill you and I believe it.

                          I believe its from an appliance or the electrical system in general not being properly grounded or a malfunctioning appliance sending current to ground. The neutrals and the grounds are all bonded together in the main panel. Even with the power meter removed the neutral is still bonded in the meter socket. I suspect thats why it can backfeed to the pole if somthing else is wrong even with the main breaker turned off.
                          Hmmm, maybe so. However, the assorted external switches mentioned during our various discussions here still only disconnect the two hot sides. The neutral line is left alone. So, even the external-type transfer switch some here say is the best bet would not prevent the problem you mention.

                          Howard Ferstler

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