Announcement

Announcement Module
Collapse

How To Post Images

Want to know the how to upload images to your posts? Image Posting Tutorial
See more
See less

Electric to my shed.

Page Title Module
Move Remove Collapse
X
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: Electric to my shed.

    Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
    With all due respect, some of the advice on this thread is pretty screwy.

    When you say "romex" I assume you are talking "type NM".

    You can't use "romex" NM in a wet location. Underground direct burial OR buried conduit is a considered a wet location.

    If you want to use direct burial wire, get type UF. Check local codes, the burial depth will likely be 18" - maybe more. I don't personally like direct burial.

    If you go with conduit (I would) you shouldn't build your conduit system "over" the wire, as suggested in a post above. One reason is that as you glue the joints, the glue gets on the insulation and damages it. Dig your trench, build your conduit. Be sure to deburr the inside edge of each piece of conduit so you don't have sharp edges to damage the wire while pulling it through. Let the glue dry, then blow the conduit out with air or pull rags through it to clean it. The trench depth for pvc will be pretty deep, check your local code requirement. I just did one here at my place and it had to be 24" from grade to top of the conduit. Your code will likely require 18" or more.

    It's a very good idea to put in a biger conduit than you need. It will pull easier and alow expansion room. You also want to *consider* putting in larger gage wire than needed. The reason is, if you ever do end up pulling more wire throught the conduit, ALL the wire in there will have to be de-rated. So IMO going to larger wire with a larger conduit makes sense.

    Forget the "romex". Get some THWN solid - not stranded - wire. I assume it's a 120V circuit. Get the right colors - white, black, green. Most THHN is actually dual rated THHN/THWN. You can't use THHN that isn't dual rated so make sure it's the right stuff.

    You don't push wire, you pull it. Pull all your conductors at once. Pulling three conductors through a 40 foot pvc run should not be a problem as long as you have 360 degrees, or less, of bends, a clean, internally deburred conduit run, and use lots of lube. Or use the Southwire SimPull THHN/THWN wire which does well with no lube (but use the lube anyway). Attach the wire to the fish tape or pull rope very securely, and tape it up so nothing will hang up inside the conduit. It helps to have someone at the feed end of the conduit lubing and feeding it in, but the primary way to move wire is pulling it. If you've never pulled wire before, get someone that has done it to show you how to attach the wire to the fishtape. Pulling is easy when you know how but can be a disaster if you don't do it right.

    Edit: Oops, didn't see John Valdes' post. Sorry, John... looks like you hit all the points, as you always do!
    I'm no electrician, and I personally like making things where they can be "worked on" later.

    With that said, I see direct burial all the time in service 30+ years without one issue.

    J.C.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Electric to my shed.

      Thats what the electrician I talked to wanted to do, I just don't see myself laying a non sleeved wire in my back yard. I'm the sorry s.o.b. that has to fix it if I nail it doing something stupid with a shovel. I like the buried line marker, I've used them for sewer and water so it makes sense that they make one for electrical as well. but that doesn't necessarily mean I won't be trying to dig Around the wire and snag it anyway. i'm a star with a shovel, I can screw up about anything.

      Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
      I'm no electrician, and I personally like making things where they can be "worked on" later.

      With that said, I see direct burial all the time in service 30+ years without one issue.

      J.C.
      No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Electric to my shed.

        Originally posted by daman View Post
        With that statement romex in glued/sealed conduit will work for many many years no issues,12 years ago i did my garden shed and no fires yet,i am not a electrician just giving my real world experience FWIW to the OP.
        Lots of things work. Right up to the point where they don't work.

        Experience WILL tell you what doesn't work. But it is very dangerous to take individual experiences and conclude that your misuse of a product or violation of a code is ok in general. Very dangerous.

        There are reasons behind the engineering of each and every product. As an engineer, I have firsthand heard many manufacturing people, installers, etc. explain to me why I don't understand my design and why it is ok to misuse it, manufacture it differently, etc. God bless 'em they all truly believe that they fully understand. Some of them believe engineers are all dopes and that that we don't get it.

        With rare exception, those folks are way, way wrong. The engineer spent months or even years designing, analyzing and worrying every aspect of the item in question, including a formal analysis of all possible failure modes. The obvious stuff isn't what took up all that time -- it's about looking at subtle second, third and fourth order affects and interactions, and then testing the p*ss out of it to learn about the unanticipated interactions and effects.

        Unless you are prepared to put in at least that same amount of time and effort, and have a full understanding of the all the physics involved in the thing, it is - with due respect - dumb-dumb-dumb to misuse a product when SAFETY is at stake. Not to mention arrogant. You may be brilliant, but you do NOT know more than the engineer does about HIS product.

        You best hope that airline mechanics understand this.

        Similarly there are reasons behind code requirements, and many of them are NOT obvious. Yet they exist to put some margin between the work and a dangerous failure. Is it a really a good idea to suggest that someone do work which violates code and thus is closer to that danger line? I don't think so. Seems to me that code represents minimum requirements, and if anything, you want to be better than the minimum.

        Whether inspection is required or not hasn't got anything to do with it.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Electric to my shed.

          Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
          I'm no electrician, and I personally like making things where they can be "worked on" later.

          With that said, I see direct burial all the time in service 30+ years without one issue.

          J.C.
          Type UF is approved as long as buried deep enough. I've personally never hit one while digging, but I'm sure it happens. People break conduit, too.

          But for my own work, I use conduit. I figure I have to dig the trench anyway... that's the painful part... may as well make it as easy as possible in the future.

          I use pvc. So cheap and easy!

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Electric to my shed.

            Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
            With all due respect, some of the advice on this thread is pretty screwy.

            When you say "romex" I assume you are talking "type NM".

            You can't use "romex" NM in a wet location. Underground direct burial OR buried conduit is a considered a wet location.

            If you want to use direct burial wire, get type UF. Check local codes, the burial depth will likely be 18" - maybe more. I don't personally like direct burial.

            If you go with conduit (I would) you shouldn't build your conduit system "over" the wire, as suggested in a post above. One reason is that as you glue the joints, the glue gets on the insulation and damages it. Dig your trench, build your conduit. Be sure to deburr the inside edge of each piece of conduit so you don't have sharp edges to damage the wire while pulling it through. Let the glue dry, then blow the conduit out with air or pull rags through it to clean it. The trench depth for pvc will be pretty deep, check your local code requirement. I just did one here at my place and it had to be 24" from grade to top of the conduit. Your code will likely require 18" or more.

            It's a very good idea to put in a biger conduit than you need. It will pull easier and alow expansion room. You also want to *consider* putting in larger gage wire than needed. The reason is, if you ever do end up pulling more wire throught the conduit, ALL the wire in there will have to be de-rated. So IMO going to larger wire with a larger conduit makes sense.

            Forget the "romex". Get some THWN solid - not stranded - wire. I assume it's a 120V circuit. Get the right colors - white, black, green. Most THHN is actually dual rated THHN/THWN. You can't use THHN that isn't dual rated so make sure it's the right stuff.

            You don't push wire, you pull it. Pull all your conductors at once. Pulling three conductors through a 40 foot pvc run should not be a problem as long as you have 360 degrees, or less, of bends, a clean, internally deburred conduit run, and use lots of lube. Or use the Southwire SimPull THHN/THWN wire which does well with no lube (but use the lube anyway). Attach the wire to the fish tape or pull rope very securely, and tape it up so nothing will hang up inside the conduit. It helps to have someone at the feed end of the conduit lubing and feeding it in, but the primary way to move wire is pulling it. If you've never pulled wire before, get someone that has done it to show you how to attach the wire to the fishtape. Pulling is easy when you know how but can be a disaster if you don't do it right.

            Edit: Oops, didn't see John Valdes' post. Sorry, John... looks like you hit all the points, as you always do!
            Who uses Glue? Slip it together and forget about it. I'd like to see someone pull UF through pvc, without a bucket of pulling soap.

            I've pushed miles of #12 &#14 solid THHN through emt. If you know how to run pipe it's a lot easier to push than pull.

            James

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Electric to my shed.

              Originally posted by John Valdes View Post
              That IMO is a waste of time. If you buy conduit, use it like conduit. Pull individual wires to the shed.
              Originally posted by John Valdes View Post



              Very good advice.



              NM (Romex) cannot be used in buried conduit. Underground installations are considered "wet" locations and NM (Romex) is not allowed in wet locations.
              UF (Flat Gray Cable) is rated for direct burial. I do not like it. But you can use it. You will never get it into the conduit. It is not designed for use with conduit.



              He has a point. But a moot point none the less, as Romex cannot be used for this application. Do not pay any attention to a general contractor. GC's generally have no clue.

              Follow Hucksters advice and you will be just fine. Good luck and have fun.
              If you would of read the rest of my post you would have noticed I suggested using THHN in 1" PVC conduit.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Electric to my shed.

                Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                Lots of things work. Right up to the point where they don't work.

                Experience WILL tell you what doesn't work. But it is very dangerous to take individual experiences and conclude that your misuse of a product or violation of a code is ok in general. Very dangerous.

                There are reasons behind the engineering of each and every product. As an engineer, I have firsthand heard many manufacturing people, installers, etc. explain to me why I don't understand my design and why it is ok to misuse it, manufacture it differently, etc. God bless 'em they all truly believe that they fully understand. Some of them believe engineers are all dopes and that that we don't get it.

                With rare exception, those folks are way, way wrong. The engineer spent months or even years designing, analyzing and worrying every aspect of the item in question, including a formal analysis of all possible failure modes. The obvious stuff isn't what took up all that time -- it's about looking at subtle second, third and fourth order affects and interactions, and then testing the p*ss out of it to learn about the unanticipated interactions and effects.

                Unless you are prepared to put in at least that same amount of time and effort, and have a full understanding of the all the physics involved in the thing, it is - with due respect - dumb-dumb-dumb to misuse a product when SAFETY is at stake. Not to mention arrogant. You may be brilliant, but you do NOT know more than the engineer does about HIS product.

                You best hope that airline mechanics understand this.

                Similarly there are reasons behind code requirements, and many of them are NOT obvious. Yet they exist to put some margin between the work and a dangerous failure. Is it a really a good idea to suggest that someone do work which violates code and thus is closer to that danger line? I don't think so. Seems to me that code represents minimum requirements, and if anything, you want to be better than the minimum.

                Whether inspection is required or not hasn't got anything to do with it.
                Sure i under stand what your saying and it's true,BUT...if in that time Span right up to this second i haven't had a issue if there was problems im sure it would have showed it's self by now.

                anyway the OP can gather this info and make his own determination on witch way to go,i don't think anyone here is saying "this way is the only way" the OP wanted ides with out inspection worries and we all gave him some.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Electric to my shed.

                  Originally posted by daman View Post
                  With that statement romex in glued/sealed conduit will work for many many years no issues,12 years ago i did my garden shed and no fires yet,i am not a electrician just giving my real world experience FWIW to the OP.
                  Sealed? That's a joke right? I will bet you your conduit is full of water right now. We try to give NEC compliant answers to questions here. Please do not encourage anyone to do something that is non-compliant.
                  Last edited by John Valdes; 04-25-2010, 02:37 PM.
                  Licensed Electrician

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Electric to my shed.

                    Originally posted by John Valdes View Post
                    Sealed? That's a joke right? I will bet you your conduit is full of water right now. We try to give NEC compliant answers to questions here. Please do not encourage anyone to do something that is non-compliant.
                    How is water going to get in a glued sealed electrical conduit box to box?

                    and it's fully compliant here in MI.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Electric to my shed.

                      Originally posted by daman View Post
                      Sure i under stand what your saying and it's true,BUT...if in that time Span right up to this second i haven't had a issue if there was problems im sure it would have showed it's self by now.
                      You can't seriously believe this. Or maybe you are sure. Eventually, you will probably learn... I hope not, but I the odds are not with you.

                      Originally posted by daman View Post
                      anyway the OP can gather this info and make his own determination on witch way to go,i don't think anyone here is saying "this way is the only way" the OP wanted ides with out inspection worries and we all gave him some.
                      You are free to say whatever you like. Personally I would not want to expose myself by offering advice to anyone to do anything that was substandard. Think about it. I don't want to appear to be picking on you... just trying to provide what I believe is an honest and useful perspective.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Electric to my shed.

                        Originally posted by daman View Post
                        How is water going to get in a glued sealed electrical conduit box to box?

                        and it's fully compliant here in MI.
                        I do not believe your suggestions are compliant anywhere in the US. The NEC categorizes underground conduit as a wet location, with no wiggle room. It's not an interpretation thing.

                        You may be able to put NM in conduit indoors, because I can't think of a section in the code that prohibits it. Maybe a pro can chime in here if I'm wrong on that. But even if allowed, it's not so smart. For one thing, it would be a bear to pull.

                        Aside from that, though, there is atmospheric humidity, right? THere are variations between the air temp and the ground temp, right? Sometimes these temps drop below the dew point, right? Think about it.

                        I am not a pro, I am an engineer and a homeowner - so I don't do this every day. But I've done a bunch over 30 years of homeowning, rental owning, helpnbg friends etc. Probably 75% of the time I've opened up a conduit, it's been wet inside. The other 25% it probably WAS wet but dried out.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Electric to my shed.

                          Originally posted by James P View Post
                          Who uses Glue? Slip it together and forget about it. I'd like to see someone pull UF through pvc, without a bucket of pulling soap.

                          I've pushed miles of #12 &#14 solid THHN through emt. If you know how to run pipe it's a lot easier to push than pull.

                          James
                          No glue? Pushing is easier? You are being tongue-in-cheek I hope. Either that or all that wire you "pushed" never encountered a bend, or maybe those many miles were done 10 feet at a time.

                          Who suggested using UF in conduit? UF is direct burial wire. Why would anyone pay for UF and then put it in conduit?

                          THHN is not for wet locations like buried conduit. You need THWN or dual rated THHN/THWN.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Electric to my shed.

                            Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                            I do not believe your suggestions are compliant anywhere in the US. The NEC categorizes underground conduit as a wet location, with no wiggle room. It's not an interpretation thing.

                            You may be able to put NM in conduit indoors, because I can't think of a section in the code that prohibits it. Maybe a pro can chime in here if I'm wrong on that. But even if allowed, it's not so smart. For one thing, it would be a bear to pull.

                            Aside from that, though, there is atmospheric humidity, right? THere are variations between the air temp and the ground temp, right? Sometimes these temps drop below the dew point, right? Think about it.

                            I am not a pro, I am an engineer and a homeowner - so I don't do this every day. But I've done a bunch over 30 years of homeowning, rental owning, helpnbg friends etc. Probably 75% of the time I've opened up a conduit, it's been wet inside. The other 25% it probably WAS wet but dried out.
                            Local municipal codes allows it here in my area going 2' deep

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Electric to my shed.

                              Originally posted by daman View Post
                              Local municipal codes allows it here in my area going 2' deep
                              Allows what? NM in buried conduit? If so - and honestly I would need to see it to believe it - then your local code is the exception, not the rule.

                              For my own education, can you point to this local code online?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Electric to my shed.

                                Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                                Allows what? NM in buried conduit? If so - and honestly I would need to see it to believe it - then your local code is the exception, not the rule.

                                For my own education, can you point to this local code online?
                                I wouldn't know where to look and i don't care if you believe me or not,thats what was explained to me when i did my garden shed so thats what i did,my ground is very stony here so i wanted conduit vs direct burial.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X