Announcement

Announcement Module
Collapse
No announcement yet.

Can three-phase be derived from storage batteries? (3Ø inverter?)

Page Title Module
Move Remove Collapse
X
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: Can three-phase be derived from storage batteries? (3Ø inverter?)

    Originally posted by cincy plumber View Post
    What siren is it?
    Federal Signal 2t22A and hopefully 3t22A soon.
    If I can design and make a device which makes 200 VDC from 15 storage batteries into three-phase 60 Hz AC, it might be wortheffort.
    I'd take an educated guess - but I'm unqualified.
    It ain't just soot, it's paydirt.
    "I swear, wherever Gift goes, argument follows." -Youtube comment

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Can three-phase be derived from storage batteries? (3Ø inverter?)

      just some questions, how do you plan on charging a 200 volt battery bank?

      keep us informed on your ideas,

      just did a little search, and here is a page of resources,
      Air Raid Sirens
      and Federal signal has some DC units, (I would look into replacement or an additional unit, so some thing that may even be able to be slide into the back of a pick up truck and moved, for true emergency use),
      Outdoor Warning*2001-130*Battery Powered Electromechanical Siren*Description

      Outdoor Warning*ECLIPSE8*Electro–Mechanical Siren*Description

      contact the Department of home land security and see if you can get a grant for either a new generator that would operate you current unit or a new siren that can be DC operated, or a emergency stand alone unit, ( I know there for a while they were giving out grants like candy in a street parade,
      Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
      attributed to Samuel Johnson
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: The gas-powered 3Ø generator is nice, but is there a way to remotely start it?

        What's wrong with a hand crank? Lazy bum!
        I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Can three-phase be derived from storage batteries? (3Ø inverter?)

          one more link
          Outdoor Warning Sirens

          some of the sirens they sell are made apparently just down the road from you, in Cannon City, Sentry Siren
          you may just contact Sentry Siren and see what one would cost that your generator can run, or a DC unit one could run as a back up unit, they would most likely have a better handle on the problems and the possibilities of what is needed or can be easly done.

          here is a DC version that has AC / DC Cabablities, and it says it this siren is FEMA and USDA grant compliant.
          http://www.sentrysiren.com/warningsi...?section=7V8-B

          one thing I think one needs to consider, since your doing this for a fire department, and if some thing is Home made and in an emergency it fails, no one is going to be thanking you on how much you saved the department, but most likely you may be hiring a lawyer to defend you and the department on why the siren failed in the emergency, now if that equipment is approved and designed by a "professional" the liability will shift from you to them or the bulk of it will as your system did not fail but theres failed),
          Last edited by BHD; 10-05-2011, 07:44 PM.
          Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
          attributed to Samuel Johnson
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: The gas-powered 3Ø generator is nice, but is there a way to remotely start it?

            Originally posted by toolaholic View Post
            What's wrong with a hand crank? Lazy bum!
            I would absolutely LOVE that!
            Actually, it would need to be pedal-cranked for more power.
            Still far less power than 10 horsepower 3Ø.
            I'd take an educated guess - but I'm unqualified.
            It ain't just soot, it's paydirt.
            "I swear, wherever Gift goes, argument follows." -Youtube comment

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: The gas-powered 3Ø generator is nice, but is there a way to remotely start it?

              I ran across a battery backup system on a thunderbolt but is was 1ph,will try to find out more.
              Installing an ECLIPSE8 next wensday in Jefferson Ohio,will post pictures when done.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: The gas-powered 3Ø generator is nice, but is there a way to remotely start it?

                Originally posted by cincy plumber View Post
                I ran across a battery backup system on a thunderbolt but is was 1ph,will try to find out more ...
                How many batteries?
                How long would the Federal Signal Thunderbolt siren operate on the batteries?
                I'd take an educated guess - but I'm unqualified.
                It ain't just soot, it's paydirt.
                "I swear, wherever Gift goes, argument follows." -Youtube comment

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: The gas-powered 3Ø generator is nice, but is there a way to remotely start it?

                  Install an Eclipse8 today in Jefferson Ohio,it went real good for a 12 hour day but we got it done
                  and set it off.Can`t find the pictures will post later.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: The gas-powered 3Ø generator is nice, but is there a way to remotely start it?

                    If you really want to do the battery backup I suggest a Xantrex XW System running 48VDC. You need three inverters each one does one phase. I have set them up for 4-wire Y 120/208 but don't know if you can do 120/240 Delta. Depending on your power needs you may need more than one set of batteries I usually use Rolls S-530 in banks of 8 for about 8 kWh of power each bank. The advantage here is that you can get solar and charge controllers then use the system to grid tie and feed back. Also you can get a genset and use an autostart for complete backup as well. Down side is price. Basic setup is going to run like $15k. I install complete off grid systems (a couple a year) for small houses and the cost with a tracker, panels, generator, etc.. runs about $30k with labor.

                    Otherwise consider a propane or natural gas driven 120/240 Delta genset that uses two legs for the standard split phase load and three for the three phase device, Good quality gensets can be had for about $8,500 and complete install maybe $14k with transfer switch and concrete pad. Advantage here is low entry price and ability to use as house genset at the same time. Not perfect as the two legs you'll use will be 120 degrees apart not 180 but better than a 120/208 unit because your standard 240 volt split phase house devices will run no better than 2210 VAC and voltage drop is more than I consider acceptable.

                    Watch the gas plow rates and pipe sizes on the genset install I see people undersize this stuff all the time and have to fix it. Sounds fun good luck with your project.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: The gas-powered 3Ø generator is nice, but is there a way to remotely start it?

                      That would be fun!
                      But if they had that much money, they should buy a Federal Signal 2001 battery-powered siren. (They now make a 6.5 hp DC motor siren.)
                      This FREE siren would be connected to 240-Volt 3Ø which powers well pumps near the center of the mobile home park.
                      Only enough battery power is needed to run the siren for 5 minutes.
                      15 batteries in series would not need voltage-increasing circuitry and may providenough power for 5 minutes.
                      Can I make a reliable motor-driven "commutator" to physically create three-phase power?
                      Better may be solid-state relays controlled electronically.
                      Last edited by Robert Gift; 10-26-2011, 12:30 PM.
                      I'd take an educated guess - but I'm unqualified.
                      It ain't just soot, it's paydirt.
                      "I swear, wherever Gift goes, argument follows." -Youtube comment

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: The gas-powered 3Ø generator is nice, but is there a way to remotely start it?

                        Yes it certainly can. The challenge would be to find the converter that you can afford, and the batteries would be costly.
                        Variable Frequency AC drives, which are becoming more common, take the AC input and rectify it to establish a DC bus.
                        The inverter portion of the Variabe Frequency drive then takes this DC and synthesizes 3 phase power that can be
                        varied in frequency to drive the motor.
                        In this case, you would want the variable frequency drive to output 60Hz, so the drive would be programmed
                        to ramp up from zero Hz to 60Hz probably over a few seconds.
                        For your application, your VF drive would not have any rectifier front end because it would get its' power (DC) from
                        your storage batteries.
                        A normal design VF drive that has the rectifier portion, when used for a 208 volt 3 phase motor, would usually
                        have a DC bus in the vicinity of perhaps 340 volts DC --- that's about 30 storage batteries connected in series.
                        If you did have such a battery, with 340 volts DC on the DC bus, for a 10HP motor you'd probably be looking
                        at maybe 40-50 amps (DC) when the siren was operating.
                        That number of batteries would need to be in a ventilated area, since the hydrogen gas they would give off
                        is explosive.

                        Comment

                        Working...
                        X