Announcement Announcement Module
Collapse
No announcement yet.
Can three-phase be derived from storage batteries? (3Ø inverter?) Page Title Module
Move Remove Collapse
X
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Can three-phase be derived from storage batteries? (3Ø inverter?)

    I own a 3Ø 10-horsepower tornado siren which is in use at my fire station.
    It is 208-240/480 connected to 240 Volts.

    To ensure that it operates during a power outage, is there a way to obtain three-phase from a bank of storage batteries?

    I'd like to build such an inverter, but am afraid it would explode. Many storage batteries can release a very dangerous amount of energy.

    Thank you.
    Last edited by Robert Gift; 10-01-2011, 07:04 AM.
    I'd take an educated guess - but I'm unqualified.
    It ain't just soot, it's paydirt.
    "I swear, wherever Gift goes, argument follows." -Youtube comment

  • #2
    Re: Can three-phase be derived from storage batteries? (3Ø inverter?)

    I don't have the answer to that question, but I sure am curious as to whether there is such an inverter available.
    Frequently asked questions about pumps and tanks.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Can three-phase be derived from storage batteries? (3Ø inverter?)

      number of years ago, there was a company that was or listed a three phase inverter, it was one of the main inverter companies in its day, but do not remember it name,
      Googled it and here is a company, (know nothing of many of the companies of to day)
      http://www.solaredge.com/files/pdfs/...-datasheet.pdf
      there are more listed if one does a search "three phase inverter"
      you will get a lot of single to three phase as well converters,

      and that could be an option as well, use a single phase DC to AC inverter, @240 volt, and then use a rotary phase converter to run the unit, (not near as efficient) but if it is intermediate use on the three phase and that is the only three phase load may be the way to go, as the rotary converter can be turned on and off,

      (an Inverter to change DC battery power to AC, is normally a electronic device that takes the DC, and through a series of electronics convert it to ac by reversing the direction of the flow of electricity, then once that is done it can be transformed to a higher voltage, and comes out as AC at the selected higher voltage)
      a converter single phase to three phase, there are two different types, the Static and the Rotary type,
      the static is a box with a group of capacitors that are used much like a starting capacitor in a single phase motor that shifts the frequency enough to use the third winding of the three phase as a starting winding,
      on the rotary unit (much the same as the static unit) but in combination with a three phase motor, (converter) normally with out a shaft)
      the unit is started, by the capacitors on the converter (no load) and once running it will produce true three phase power as the motor/generator is now generating a true third phase on the lead that is not hooked up to the single phase power,

      the rotor converter is a much better converter than the static, (on the static you lose 1/3 of motors power and is not capable of straiting motors under load) the rotary is capable of starting motor under load and give one full power, and is much easier on the equipment being ran, but the rotary unit must be operational before trying to operate the 3 phase motor, usually stated by at least 15 seconds, (so it is up to RPM and going correctly), before it is hit with a load,

      the other option I could see is either a single phase generator with a rotary converter or just a three phase generator,

      for ten horse power your looking at a lot of batters and a huge inverters

      a generator in three phase would be a better bet dollars wise, is my guess,

      the other possibility I can think of is contact the (GSA or what ever agency it is that deals in the government surplus for Fire departments), and see if they have any military sirens that are either gas powered or DC,

      some inverters are deigned to charge a bank of batteries and work kinda like huge UPS for a computer, and some only invert the DC power, and would need a separate charging system, (normally designed to work on solar or wind),
      Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
      attributed to Samuel Johnson
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Can three-phase be derived from storage batteries? (3Ø inverter?)

        I think you have all ready see this, unless there is another Robert Gift,
        siren,electro mechanical siren,hand operated siren::TAIZHOU LION KING SIGNAL CO., LTD.::

        but (just for the discussion, partly relating to the discussion on the other board, The Siren Board :: View topic - Lion King Portable Gasoline Powered Siren ), to run a 10 hp eclectic with gas engine you would need nearly a 20 gas engine to equivalent to the 10 hp electric, so if you took a shaft and could turn the electric motor via a gas motor, on smaller gasoline powered engines it takes nearly half of the power to keep the engine running at the proper speed,
        Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
        attributed to Samuel Johnson
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

        Comment


        • #5
          The gas-powered 3Ø generator is nice, but is there a way to remotely start it?

          Would be nice to place 15 13.8-Volt storage batteries in series to create the 208 volts.
          Then work on AC and phase creation.
          (Withe less dense air 5,300 ft ASL elevation, this siren too quicky attains 3,450 rpm. 200 volts may produce a little slower acceleration.)

          That be me in Air Raid Sirens.com !
          But I was thrown out for the signature:
          Being "born again" is much like being born the first time.
          One minute you're quiet and harmless. The next you're a screaming fountain of crap.
          I'd take an educated guess - but I'm unqualified.
          It ain't just soot, it's paydirt.
          "I swear, wherever Gift goes, argument follows." -Youtube comment

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The gas-powered 3Ø generator is nice, but is there a way to remotely start it?

            before electronic inverters, there was rotary inverters, that basically used a DC motor turning an AC generator, the problem was they were very inefficient, in that the DC motor had to running all the time and pulling a moderate load even when it was not generating any power to us on the AC,

            but to find a DC motor rated my guess at about 12 to 15 HP to drive your 8 to 10,000 watt three phase alternator, to buy new would get expensive,

            IMO, a generator I would think would be your best bet, (guessing the siren is at your fire/rescue station?) that way it can power the building to be use as a shelter, command post or any other number of things even if the power is out,

            in the picture is the generator I assembled for the farm a number of years ago,
            took a old engine from a combine, and found a generator with blown engine on it and put the two to gether, (the way the combine was set up with the radiator was similar to the way it set up on the generator, it runs now on propane, or gasoline, it is 30KW three phase, (at first I had it set up to funcion on @20 kw singel phase, but when I added three phase I rewired it to the 3 phase, configuration, It is a wild leg 240 delta set up on voltage, (as it matches the farm "thre phase")
            on propane it starts very easy, even at very cold tempatures, (I am at 4000 feet),

            before I had the three phase on the farm ( from the REA) I use static and rotory converters to run the three phase equiptment off the single phase, and did once off the generators as well, (I am not sure if the siren would run right on a static converter, as it would lose 1/3 of it power, over heat the windings), it would run OK on a roto converter, and there are ways to make them considerably cheaper than buying them, but I do not know if that would fly in a seting like you have there.
            Attached Files
            Last edited by BHD; 10-02-2011, 10:14 AM.
            Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
            attributed to Samuel Johnson
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Can three-phase be derived from storage batteries? (3Ø inverter?)

              Remotly starting, there are generator packages that AUTO start and switch from the grid at the loss of power,

              called a automatic tranfer switch, (the ones I am aware of use some type of auto start),
              Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
              attributed to Samuel Johnson
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

              Comment


              • #8
                Excellent job of attaching an engine to 3Ø alternator!

                Our volunteer fire station has a generator which one rolls outdoors and plugs into an outside connection to power the station.Unfortunately it is not three-phase and could not power a 10-horsepower motor.

                I am considering making my own rotary phase converter.
                But if I am going to do that, it might be.tter to make a battery-powered 3Ø inverter - if such is possible.

                I'd take an educated guess - but I'm unqualified.
                It ain't just soot, it's paydirt.
                "I swear, wherever Gift goes, argument follows." -Youtube comment

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Excellent job of attaching an engine to 3Ø alternator!

                  Basically all a rotary phase converter is a static converter to start a larger thee phase motor than what is to be driven, (with out shafts) that then generates basically a true three phase and sends it out (there are ways of doing it with out the static converter (or starter) but will not post on line, as they are not nessarly "approved" methods, they may be OK in a shop operated by one person, but not a fire department.
                  Last edited by BHD; 10-02-2011, 12:20 PM.
                  Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                  attributed to Samuel Johnson
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The gas-powered 3Ø generator is nice, but is there a way to remotely start it?

                    Originally posted by Robert Gift View Post
                    Would be nice to place 15 13.8-Volt storage batteries in series to create the 208 volts.
                    Then work on AC and phase creation.
                    (Withe less dense air 5,300 ft ASL elevation, this siren too quicky attains 3,450 rpm. 200 volts may produce a little slower acceleration.)

                    That be me in Air Raid Sirens.com !
                    But I was thrown out for the signature:
                    Being "born again" is much like being born the first time.
                    One minute you're quiet and harmless. The next you're a screaming fountain of crap.
                    I am also on the siren board and I also install sirens. I will ask Clayton and see what he can come up with.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The gas-powered 3Ø generator is nice, but is there a way to remotely start it?

                      in the pictures below are some schematics on 12 volt to 220 volt inverter, (I know that is not what your wanting)
                      I would think one would need three of the units with an additional circuit to trigger the cycles in thirds and then tie the three together for the three phase, (at least that is how some of the older companies did it in the past,

                      there have been some consolidations and many changes in the names, (I suppose to to Chinese imports), I do not even know the companies to call any more with out doing a lot of study,

                      (the reason I post this is not that there that complicated, but I would think one would need either to have Plans, or a excellent working in electronics to specify the correct components to handle the loads) now by going with the higher voltages may be advantageous as the amperage they would need to handle would be less, but I think I would be calling some of the major inverter companies and seeing what they could do for you,

                      schematics from
                      DRSSTC
                      I need a help with DC to AC converter ( pure sine ) - Sonsivri

                      In my opinion I would not really consider this a DIY project, is what I am trying to say,
                      Attached Files
                      Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                      "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                      attributed to Samuel Johnson
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                      PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The gas-powered 3Ø generator is nice, but is there a way to remotely start it?

                        It may be easier to switch 200 volts DC (batteries in series) than to raise the voltage and amperage needed to operate the 10-hp motor.
                        I'd take an educated guess - but I'm unqualified.
                        It ain't just soot, it's paydirt.
                        "I swear, wherever Gift goes, argument follows." -Youtube comment

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Can three-phase be derived from storage batteries? (3Ø inverter?)

                          What siren is it? We put up a sd10 3ph in an area that only 1ph used a vr drive converter.
                          As far as battery back up 3ph I do not think it is possible ,it might be better to up grade to a newer siren,Most of the sirens made today are 48 vdc.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Can three-phase be derived from storage batteries? (3Ø inverter?)

                            You might be able to use this drive and then your inverter would only have to put out 240 1ph.
                            www.yaskawa.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Can three-phase be derived from storage batteries? (3Ø inverter?)

                              It works good we tested it in the shop and is still going strong.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X