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Corrective Action ? (sub Panel)

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  • Corrective Action ? (sub Panel)

    I know what I would recommend ... What would you guys suggest as a safety minimum ?



  • #2
    Re: Corrective Action ? (sub Panel)

    I'd move to a new place.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Corrective Action ? (sub Panel)

      I don't feel like picking it apart with a fine tooth comb right now, but I'll say:
      A proper 2p30 breaker
      Connector on the 10/2
      Check the size of the feeder neutral.
      While I'm replacing the 2p30 I might put some Sharpie marker on the white wire.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Corrective Action ? (sub Panel)

        I would kill power to the panel and replace it with a proper panel.
        that box in no where near ANY electrical code and is plain dangerous
        and is a fire hazard!

        Cactus Man

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Corrective Action ? (sub Panel)

          I'm NOT an electrician.... BUT, I'd immediately want to replace that panel and would call a licensed electrician to do so!

          Considering the state of that mess, I'm wondering is that corrosion, spray paint or what is going on there. Looks like the cover has been off for some time. I see loose wires, wires that I can't identify the color at all. No buss bar that I can identify, etc. How old is this box?

          Also, considering the state of that panel, it would call into question the entire system and I'd ask that the electrician to inspect everything, so I could be ensured that the building was safe.

          CWS
          Last edited by CWSmith; 04-26-2013, 11:46 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Corrective Action ? (sub Panel)

            Best advice to have a licensed electrician go over everything in house, and then have it inspected.
            Whoever hooked up the 10-2 without a box connector and landed it on a 40a breaker is a hack. If there was a short, it would nuke the wire and probably cause a fire. When there is one mistake, its usually just the tip of the iceberg.

            It always baffles me why people would take on the liability of messing with something they are not qualified for.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Corrective Action ? (sub Panel)

              Originally posted by cactusman View Post
              I would kill power to the panel and replace it with a proper panel.
              that box in no where near ANY electrical code and is plain dangerous
              and is a fire hazard!


              Cactus Man
              Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
              I'm NOT an electrician.... BUT, I'd immediately want to replace that panel and would call a licensed electrician to do so!

              Considering the state of that mess, I'm wondering is that corrosion, spray paint or what is going on there. Looks like the cover has been off for some time. I see loose wires, wires that I can't identify the color at all. No buss bar that I can identify, etc. How old is this box?

              Also, considering the state of that panel, it would call into question the entire system and I'd ask that the electrician to inspect everything, so I could be ensured that the building was safe.

              CWS
              I'm sorry, but you guys have NO idea what you are talking about. WHAT qualifies you to make all these assumptions with NO basis on fact???

              Instead of knee-jerking a reply about what a fire hazard you think it is, why not say what you think is wring based on FACTS and experience?

              The panel is an old, dirty split-buss panel, but beyond what I wrote what can you ACTUALLY tell is wrong, broken or non-complaint about it??

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Corrective Action ? (sub Panel)

                Originally posted by johncameron View Post
                Best advice to have a licensed electrician go over everything in house, and then have it inspected.
                Agree.


                Originally posted by johncameron View Post
                Whoever hooked up the 10-2 without a box connector and landed it on a 40a breaker is a hack.
                Is that a 40? I can't tell from the pic. If so then yes, besides missing the handle tie, that should be replaced with the proper 30A.


                Originally posted by johncameron View Post
                If there was a short, it would nuke the wire and probably cause a fire.
                This I have to call BS on. #10 on a 40A breaker is almost always improper, but to say this is a bit over the top.
                Are you aware what the ACTUAL amperage rating is for #10cu??? A hint: NEC 240.4(D) is what limits #10 to 30A. 30A is NOT the actual amperage rating of the conductor.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Corrective Action ? (sub Panel)

                  Well exuse me all to hell there Speedy!

                  YOU didn't ask for all the specifics, and you certainly didn't address your queston for specifically "Licensed Electricians" YOU ASKED: "What would you guys suggest as a safety minimum ?"

                  And to that question, my answer would STILL be to call a "licensed electriician" to replace the box. I didn't say it was a fire hazard, but it definitely looks like a hazard to anyone who might own that home or whatever it is. Something that I wouldn't be messing with as a homeowner or recommend. I'd tell them to call an licensed electrician to deal with it and other possible problems.

                  As far as qualifications are concerned, I'll play... Should I replace a service or breakout panel? Absolutely NOT! Could I replace a panel like this... ABSOLUTELY I can and I have. (The question is whether your local code allows that to be done as long as it meets inspection.) When electricians don't make their scheduled appointments and an inspector has been scheduled, one does what one must, buys the NEC or whatever and figures it out. Did my service installation (meter box and panel and all associated wire, ground, etc. pass inspection? ABSOLUTELY. Did it get a comment from the inspector... YEP, it certainly did... he was quite blunt about wanting to know "Who in the hell did the installation?" and though apprehensive, I answered him honestly. His reply was, "I thought so... it was too damned neat!" then he signed the certification and handed it to me, and said if I'd ever like to be an electrician, come and see him!

                  That doesn't make me qualified however, and therefore I state that right up front whenever I comment. But considering that you didn't qualify your question, there was nothing wrong with my answer! And had you qualified your question, I would have not answered at all and simply checked back to read the answers given by those who hold a license... none of us are above a little education.

                  NOW, what did I see wrong specifically... well where does one start? I see what appears to be at least three open wires, with no wire nuts, they are just cut off on the ends... one red, one white on the upper left and one black that appears to be resting on the top of the ground-buss. I see what appears to be a heavier (orange?) cable coming in without a proper panel nut/clamp. I don't see a shut-off main breaker/switch, which I don't like. I assume you've got to go to the source of those two heavy cables to shut off the power to the box... is this code?? Both black and white wires from the orange cable appear to be "hot", and therefore the white wire needs to be marked as such and hopefully is on the other end. Neither the red wire nor the bare ground wire appear to be connected to anything! (perhaps it's just the photo though).

                  I also see what appears to be #12 or #14 wires coming through the other panel nuts... without any sign of the sheathing being securely clamped, perhaps that is evident at the panels exterior but it isn't in the photo. And, I see what appears to be corrosion, dirt or paint (which I mentioned) on everything it the panel, which makes the wires and breakers tough to identify... and also makes me wonder why the cover hasn't been on this panel or if it is in a hazardous environment (paint shop perhaps). In any case, that needs to be remedied. Now I see that there is a buss-bar in the upper right of the panel... in that rat's nest of wiring. The whole damn panel is amateurish at best and unsafe to work on from my point of view without cutting the main.

                  Can we even presume from this photo that the panel is grounded? As I said, I'd get someone qualified (perhaps like yourself) and replace it,

                  Hey, I realize that I may well be partly wrong, but my response is to you... and not anyone needing advice. You are the one at the panel, while I'm only seeing a photo that displays disorganization. I took your question as a contest, for surely you must be so smart that you don't need to confirm your thoughts with other qualified electricians and thus I interpreted your open question as such.

                  I don't do enough of this to flip the names of the components off the tip of my tongue. When I run into such challenges I grab the book and confirm what I need to know. It's not rocket science, but one needs to know what is or isn't proper and what "code" demands. That is by no means "not having a clue", it simply means that the exercise needs to follow the rules and I'm aware enough to not rely on something that I knew ten years ago or even last year. And so I'm NOT an electrician by choice, but I have a helluva lot more than "a clue" and am knowledgeable enough to do the job and to not endanger myself or the house that I'm working on.

                  One of the common themes on this forum subject is to "get a licensed electrician", and that answer certainly seems to be needed here and is entirely appropriate. And though my answer wasn't specific (because you didn't ask), it certainly doesn't deserve your snobbish response of "you guys have NO idea what you are talking about". IF you post a "contest" of sorts for Electricians ONLY then you ought to say so. Otherwise the subject question is open to all forum members and there was nothing wrong with the answers given.

                  CWS
                  Last edited by CWSmith; 04-27-2013, 04:08 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Corrective Action ? (sub Panel)

                    I believe the white in the panel is overspray from painting the room. If that's the case , My guess is the panel hasn't had a cover in some time, and won't be easy to locate ! Time for a new panel ,Me thinks. WHAT IS SLEEP ??
                    Last edited by toolaholic; 04-27-2013, 04:42 AM.
                    I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Corrective Action ? (sub Panel)

                      Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
                      Well exuse me all to hell there Speedy!

                      YOU didn't ask for all the specifics, and you certainly didn't address your queston for specifically "Licensed Electricians" YOU ASKED: "What would you guys suggest as a safety minimum ?"

                      And to that question, my answer would STILL be to call a "licensed electriician" to replace the box. I didn't say it was a fire hazard, but it definitely looks like a hazard to anyone who might own that home or whatever it is. Something that I wouldn't be messing with as a homeowner or recommend. I'd tell them to call an licensed electrician to deal with it and other possible problems.

                      As far as qualifications are concerned, I'll play... Should I replace a service or breakout panel? Absolutely NOT! Could I replace a panel like this... ABSOLUTELY I can and I have. (The question is whether your local code allows that to be done as long as it meets inspection.) When electricians don't make their scheduled appointments and an inspector has been scheduled, one does what one must, buys the NEC or whatever and figures it out. Did my service installation (meter box and panel and all associated wire, ground, etc. pass inspection? ABSOLUTELY. Did it get a comment from the inspector... YEP, it certainly did... he was quite blunt about wanting to know "Who in the hell did the installation?" and though apprehensive, I answered him honestly. His reply was, "I thought so... it was too damned neat!" then he signed the certification and handed it to me, and said if I'd ever like to be an electrician, come and see him!

                      That doesn't make me qualified however, and therefore I state that right up front whenever I comment. But considering that you didn't qualify your question, there was nothing wrong with my answer! And had you qualified your question, I would have not answered at all and simply checked back to read the answers given by those who hold a license... none of us are above a little education.

                      NOW, what did I see wrong specifically... well where does one start? I see what appears to be at least three open wires, with no wire nuts, they are just cut off on the ends... one red, one white on the upper left and one black that appears to be resting on the top of the ground-buss. I see what appears to be a heavier (orange?) cable coming in without a proper panel nut/clamp. I don't see a shut-off main breaker/switch, which I don't like. I assume you've got to go to the source of those two heavy cables to shut off the power to the box... is this code?? Both black and white wires from the orange cable appear to be "hot", and therefore the white wire needs to be marked as such and hopefully is on the other end. Neither the red wire nor the bare ground wire appear to be connected to anything! (perhaps it's just the photo though).

                      I also see what appears to be #12 or #14 wires coming through the other panel nuts... without any sign of the sheathing being securely clamped, perhaps that is evident at the panels exterior but it isn't in the photo. And, I see what appears to be corrosion, dirt or paint (which I mentioned) on everything it the panel, which makes the wires and breakers tough to identify... and also makes me wonder why the cover hasn't been on this panel or if it is in a hazardous environment (paint shop perhaps). In any case, that needs to be remedied. Now I see that there is a buss-bar in the upper right of the panel... in that rat's nest of wiring. The whole damn panel is amateurish at best and unsafe to work on from my point of view without cutting the main.

                      Can we even presume from this photo that the panel is grounded? As I said, I'd get someone qualified (perhaps like yourself) and replace it,

                      Hey, I realize that I may well be partly wrong, but my response is to you... and not anyone needing advice. You are the one at the panel, while I'm only seeing a photo that displays disorganization. I took your question as a contest, for surely you must be so smart that you don't need to confirm your thoughts with other qualified electricians and thus I interpreted your open question as such.

                      I don't do enough of this to flip the names of the components off the tip of my tongue. When I run into such challenges I grab the book and confirm what I need to know. It's not rocket science, but one needs to know what is or isn't proper and what "code" demands. That is by no means "not having a clue", it simply means that the exercise needs to follow the rules and I'm aware enough to not rely on something that I knew ten years ago or even last year. And so I'm NOT an electrician by choice, but I have a helluva lot more than "a clue" and am knowledgeable enough to do the job and to not endanger myself or the house that I'm working on.

                      One of the common themes on this forum subject is to "get a licensed electrician", and that answer certainly seems to be needed here and is entirely appropriate. And though my answer wasn't specific (because you didn't ask), it certainly doesn't deserve your snobbish response of "you guys have NO idea what you are talking about". IF you post a "contest" of sorts for Electricians ONLY then you ought to say so. Otherwise the subject question is open to all forum members and there was nothing wrong with the answers given.

                      CWS
                      tl;dr

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Corrective Action ? (sub Panel)

                        Originally posted by Speedy Petey View Post
                        tl;dr
                        what's the translation?
                        ~~

                        ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Corrective Action ? (sub Panel)

                          Originally posted by Plumber Punky View Post
                          what's the translation?
                          Wikipedia:Too long; didn't read - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                          Traditionally, the phrase too long; didn't read (abbreviated tl;dr or simply tldr) has been used on the Internet as a reply to an excessively long statement. It indicates that the reader did not actually read the statement due to its undue length.
                          Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                          attributed to Samuel Johnson
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Corrective Action ? (sub Panel)

                            Originally posted by Speedy Petey View Post
                            Agree.


                            Is that a 40? I can't tell from the pic. If so then yes, besides missing the handle tie, that should be replaced with the proper 30A.


                            This I have to call BS on. #10 on a 40A breaker is almost always improper, but to say this is a bit over the top.
                            Are you aware what the ACTUAL amperage rating is for #10cu??? A hint: NEC 240.4(D) is what limits #10 to 30A. 30A is NOT the actual amperage rating of the conductor.
                            Yes, I am aware that some types of conductors are rated up to 40amps under the 90c column of 310.16. Are you aware that Romex is not alowed to exceed the 60c ampacity column per 334.80? I am aware that the 90c column can be used for derating purposes, but the fact remains that that cables ampacity can not exceed 30 amps, period. Given the fact that this cable is not properly protected, I see nothing "over the top" about my post.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Corrective Action ? (sub Panel)

                              Originally posted by Plumber Punky View Post
                              what's the translation?
                              or

                              He didn't want to hear that he might be wrong so he ignored what CWS wrote.
                              ---------------
                              Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
                              ---------------
                              “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
                              ---------
                              "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
                              ---------
                              sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

                              Comment

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