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  • Reckless driver charged for leading to electrocution of two women coming to his aid

    http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...,7655025.story

    article commenter corrects:
    "The driver hit an old lamp post NOT a utility poll. The wires from the lamp post were old and wired from underground. The lamp post had not been updated with a GFI that would have saved the victims. You can see the lamp post in the Times photo. When the car knocked out the hydrant at the same time, the flood of water hid the downed post and exposed wires. There were NO visible power cables and that is why people approached the car including an LAPD officer. Come on LA Times. I know things are tight money wise but let's get at least the basic facts right in your reporting."

    Would ONE GFI for the circuit for all the lamps work?
    Is there a GFI for high voltage?
    Thank you.
    Last edited by Robert Gift; 07-27-2013, 10:12 PM.
    I'd take an educated guess - but I'm unqualified.
    It ain't just soot, it's paydirt.
    "I swear, wherever Gift goes, argument follows." -Youtube comment

  • #2
    Re: Reckless driver charged for leading to electrocution of two women coming to his a

    The link doesn't work for me. I can't see if the 'old lamp' was really old or a new style made to look old.

    Many manufacturers have over 120 volt protection devices. Here's an industrial version for 208 - 600 volts:

    http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/Fi...k_Brochure.pdf

    I'm no electrician. That said, I would think that high voltage would work similar to low voltage as one GFCI would protect the devices further downstream, provided the current draw does not exceed the rating of the GFCI. In the case above, max incoming continuous current is 100 amps.

    The number of old lamps this could light would vary upon the type of bulb being lit. Incandescent lamps would be fewer, while halide/metal vapor lamps would be more, LED would provide the max amount of lamps installed.

    Edit: a search for those terms brought me to this news item:

    http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...,7655025.story

    Also, the article states it was a utility pole, had downed wires at 4,800 volts. It sure looks like a utility pole to me in the picture.

    Also, the commenter who "corrected" - he had no backup for the "proof" he presented - no data, no updated picture...
    Last edited by Plumber Punky; 07-27-2013, 10:05 AM. Reason: spelling
    ~~

    ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Reckless driver charged for leading to electrocution of two women coming to his a

      That comment is bullsh*t. GFI's are NOT used for lamp post lighting. More over-dramatics.

      That is a utility light pole. NOT a utility distribution pole.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Reckless driver charged for leading to electrocution of two women coming to his a

        I didn't read story but; Charging the driver sounds like a stretch, something that would not stick (legally).

        Yes, GFCI protection is possible at higher voltages, but it's generally not used because it's not practical for utility lighting. Even newer installations of underground conductors have some moisture in the conduit. This causes a small amount of current to leak from the wires if there is the slightest crack in the insulation. A person could get electrocuted with >2ma of current flowing thru them. I guarantee you the leakage current of those old wires is way more than that tiny amount.
        If you had gfci protection (trip around 3 to 6ma) your street lights would be constantly tripped out which poses more of a safety issue than the possibility of people touching live wires.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Reckless driver charged for leading to electrocution of two women coming to his a

          We use 480v GFIs on all our welding machines, OSHA requirement that went into affect in 2007.

          https://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/t12240/
          Last edited by Bob D.; 07-27-2013, 07:55 PM.
          ---------------
          Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
          ---------------
          “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
          ---------
          "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
          ---------
          sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Reckless driver charged for leading to electrocution of two women coming to his a

            Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
            We use 480v GFIs on all our welding machines, OSHA requirement that went into affect in 2007.

            https://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/t12240/
            Osha does not require 480v welders to be GFCI protected unless there is no eq. ground conductor, or if it's a temporary installation.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Reckless driver charged for leading to electrocution of two women coming to his a

              Originally posted by johncameron View Post
              Osha does not require 480v welders to be GFCI protected unless there is no eq. ground conductor, or if it's a temporary installation.
              This is way off topic, but I want to clear this up.

              Well in construction or construction like activities most welders would be temporary
              would they not?

              When a welder gets plugged into a 480V receptacle, we are required at the place I work now
              and also back in 2007 to have a 480v GFCI installed at the source, and this came about because
              of the rule change in 2007. The company I was working for in 2007 bought over 100 480V GFCIs
              so we would be compliant with the new rule. I don't think they would have made that
              investment if it was not required, especially since we had been using welders every day
              there for the past 30 years w/o them and not had an incident. I've seen a few arktite
              connectors incorrectly wired by electricians over the years on vairous jobs though.

              Did you by chance read my post from back in 2007?

              Here's a snippet of it;

              OSHA currently requires GFCI protection for 120-volt, single-phase,
              15- and 20-ampere temporary receptacle outlets used on construction
              sites (Sec. 1926.404(b)(1)). In the 28 years that this requirement has
              been in effect, the Agency estimates that between about 650 and 1,100
              lives have been saved because of it.\17\ Temporary wiring associated
              with construction-like activities in general industry exposes employees
              to the same ground-fault hazards as those associated with temporary
              receptacle outlets on construction sites. In Sec. 1910.304(b)(3)(ii),
              OSHA is extending the ground-fault protection requirement to temporary
              receptacles used in construction-like activities performed in general
              industry. At the same time, this final rule extends protection to
              temporary wiring receptacles of higher voltage and current ratings
              (such as 125-volt, single-phase, 30-ampere and 480-volt, three-phase
              receptacles). It better protects employees from ground-fault hazards
              than the construction rule because it covers other equipment that is
              just as subject to damage as 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere
              equipment and that is more prevalent today than when the construction
              rule was promulgated over 28 years ago.
              Last edited by Bob D.; 07-27-2013, 09:54 PM.
              ---------------
              Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
              ---------------
              “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
              ---------
              "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
              ---------
              sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Reckless driver charged for leading to electrocution of two women coming to his a

                Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
                We use 480v GFIs on all our welding machines, OSHA requirement that went into affect in 2007.

                https://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/t12240/
                Bob, I took this to mean your at an industrial facility, not a construction site. Yes, Both OSHA and the NEC require GFCI protection for temporary power used at construction sites.
                The intent is because of wet conditions and flexible cords that are subject to heavy damage. Technically, any flexible cord set could be considered temporary. Welders in industrial facilities that use flexible cords are exempt from GFCI protection provided you follow a written procedure called the "Assured equipment grounding conductor program" where continuity testing is documented. Flexible cords and any fixed receptacles can be used in lieu of GFCI protection in this case. GFCI is also not required if cord and plug is not used ( no receptacle). The receptacle outlet (not permanent) on the flexible cord is the major focus. If you don't have GFCI protection, Making sure the equipment ground is intact is critical.
                Last edited by johncameron; 07-28-2013, 01:12 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Reckless driver charged for leading to electrocution of two women coming to his a

                  just looking at the specs for installing street lighting by our local utility and there is no requirement for GFI protection

                  http://www.winnipeg.ca/finance/finda..._Standards.pdf

                  This is in Canada so things may be different in the US.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Reckless driver charged for leading to electrocution of two women coming to his a

                    This really hit close to home 15 miles +/-. At first it sounded like a tragedy all around, good samaratins doing what most would of us would do and jump to help.

                    Now in light of the findings the driver was reckless, it's no different than if he ran them over during his recklessness. Same as a drunk driver.

                    Rick.
                    phoebe it is

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      "Kind of hot, ain't it".

                      From OK4450 in CarTalk.com Forum:
                      http://community.cartalk.com/discuss...less-driver/p2

                      "I came in from work one time and right after I got home the power went out. Neighbors across the street still had theirs and a look out the back door didn't tell me anything so my wife called the electric company.

                      When the service guy arrived we walked out and discovered that the line had been ripped down from the pole at my house, down the alley, and across the street to another house.

                      The moron who lived in that house came out and stated that he had trimmed a tree limb and it fell on the wires from his house to the pole. This proceeded to tear more lines down.
                      Instead of gently trimming the limb from around the wires at his house he lopped the entire 30 foot limb off at the trunk and like a runaway train it brought everything down.

                      This guy was in shorts, no shirt, and barefooted. The service rep told this guy not once, but twice, to stay away from that line on the ground because it was probably still hot.
                      So what does he do a minute later? Walks right on top of it while barefooted.

                      He yelled, shot about 3 feet up in the air with a wisp of smoke, and then limped off home. The service rep was snickering and shouted after him; "Kind of hot, ain't it"."
                      Last edited by Robert Gift; 07-29-2013, 07:30 AM.
                      I'd take an educated guess - but I'm unqualified.
                      It ain't just soot, it's paydirt.
                      "I swear, wherever Gift goes, argument follows." -Youtube comment

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Reckless driver charged for leading to electrocution of two women coming to his a

                        Originally posted by johncameron View Post
                        Bob, I took this to mean your at an industrial facility, not a construction site. Yes, Both OSHA and the NEC require GFCI protection for temporary power used at construction sites.
                        The intent is because of wet conditions and flexible cords that are subject to heavy damage. Technically, any flexible cord set could be considered temporary. Welders in industrial facilities that use flexible cords are exempt from GFCI protection provided you follow a written procedure called the "Assured equipment grounding conductor program" where continuity testing is documented. Flexible cords and any fixed receptacles can be used in lieu of GFCI protection in this case. GFCI is also not required if cord and plug is not used ( no receptacle). The receptacle outlet (not permanent) on the flexible cord is the major focus. If you don't have GFCI protection, Making sure the equipment ground is intact is critical.
                        John, I'm just telling you what the requirements are where I have worked; on construction sites, in industrial facilities, and construction type work at industrial facilities, refineries, and chemical plants. We have an Assured Equipment Grounding Conductor Program and have for many, many years. When the requirement for GFCIs for 480v came about in 2007, the Safety department looked it and decided we needed to get the GFCIs for all the portable welding machines, over 100 of them. I don't think they made this decision without considering if it was required or not, since the cost was significant.

                        You do what you think is right, and we will do the same. Remember the OSHA standards are the minimum requirement, nothing says one can't do more, but in this case I don't believe we are going beyond the minimum.
                        ---------------
                        Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
                        ---------------
                        “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
                        ---------
                        "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
                        ---------
                        sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Reckless driver charged for leading to electrocution of two women coming to his a

                          Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
                          John, I'm just telling you what the requirements are where I have worked; on construction sites, in industrial facilities, and construction type work at industrial facilities, refineries, and chemical plants. We have an Assured Equipment Grounding Conductor Program and have for many, many years. When the requirement for GFCIs for 480v came about in 2007, the Safety department looked it and decided we needed to get the GFCIs for all the portable welding machines, over 100 of them. I don't think they made this decision without considering if it was required or not, since the cost was significant.

                          You do what you think is right, and we will do the same. Remember the OSHA standards are the minimum requirement, nothing says one can't do more, but in this case I don't believe we are going beyond the minimum.
                          I hear you Bob, I don't mean to nit-pick here, but you said (I'm paraphrasing) OSHA says GFCI is now required on all welders. That's simply not the case, The GFCI requirement is for "temporary receptacle outlets" Not the welder itself. Basically their talking about temporary extension cords used in construction. Some of the verbiage in OSHA may be interpreted differently where you are, (such as defining what a ground fault hazard is) I know as a Master electrician, that here in Michigan MIOSHA does not require it in an industrial settings. Your local Authority may differ.

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