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Need Help Finding a External Panel Mount GFCI

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  • Need Help Finding a External Panel Mount GFCI

    I'm working on a project that hopefully turns into something I can have UL certified and patented. I'm looking for a GFCI breaker that mounts externally, that is, not inside a breaker panel.

    What I need is something like what is found inside of a Navien tankless water heater. The one inside there is a Cheil Electric Wiring Devices Co. Ltd. (SG-30nc). I can't find any supplier for that part. Their web site is in Korean and there doesn't look to be any translation.

    The breaker is 15 amp 120 volt. It has a trip lever like one would expect and a little button for testing/tripping the circuit. The one I have has 2 screws on top and 2 on the bottom for power in and out. There are also 2 additional screw holes for mounting on any surface. This one is mounted on a plastic pad.

    Do you guys have any source for something similar?
    ~~

    ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

  • #2
    Re: Need Help Finding a External Panel Mount GFCI


    Something like this?
    https://www.asi-ez.com/member/~NDB1L...sp?Dept_ID=557

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Need Help Finding a External Panel Mount GFCI

      that looks very promising. say the total load for the product is 8 amps. should i use the 10 amp or 16 amp version?
      ~~

      ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Need Help Finding a External Panel Mount GFCI

        any breaker type must be within an enclosure or panel
        even if they are din rail types as the conductors are exposed and can be removed from it
        and exposed conductors fall under nfpa 70 a fire marshal can condemn it.

        the only gfci type of device not required to be in a panel if the sealed devices you find on some newer appliances and these are usually found on the plug itself such as like this one
        Click image for larger version

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        Last edited by gnuuser; 09-05-2013, 10:53 AM. Reason: added info
        shooting the s*** is a lot more fun when you use hollow points (much more splatter)

        coffee hell gimme booze!!!

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        • #5
          Re: Need Help Finding a External Panel Mount GFCI

          Originally posted by Plumber Punky View Post
          that looks very promising. say the total load for the product is 8 amps. should i use the 10 amp or 16 amp version?
          Can't give a specific answer because I have no idea of the application. Many variables such as, type of load, available fault current, where its used ... etc

          You must follow the specific UL listings of the product (how its used). If need be you can have your own circuitry designed to your requirements and have it tested to meet UL requirements.

          Gnuuser; I agree this breaker probably needs an enclosure, but again, it all comes down to the UL listings (or other recognized testing agency) of the product. BTW; NFPA70 is only a portion of the rules, there are other NFPA requirements such as NFPA79 which covers machinery and automation.

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          • #6
            Re: Need Help Finding a External Panel Mount GFCI

            UL testing is not required for any electrical device to be sold, per UL. Some municipalities may require it but there is no law that says it is mandatory. This breaker would be installed inside a box with the other electrical parts.
            ~~

            ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Need Help Finding a External Panel Mount GFCI

              Originally posted by Plumber Punky View Post
              UL testing is not required for any electrical device to be sold, per UL. Some municipalities may require it but there is no law that says it is mandatory. This breaker would be installed inside a box with the other electrical parts.
              All electrical devices and assemblies must be approved. Yes, the AHJ has the final say so, but the UL is the most widely recognized testing lab around. No, They are not the only game in town, there are others, But I will bet good money the breaker you find will be "listed".
              Nearly all electricians, engineers and inspectors in the US carry the UL whitebook around like it was their bible. NEC 110.3 says failure to follow the listing instructions of the product is a violation. You can't just do whatever you want willy nilly.

              I can't just release my "newfangled appliance" and sell it on the market because the internal parts look good to me. I have to have the assembly approved by recognized testing agency such as UL, CSA, EU or similar approval process.

              No offense but, If you have to ask "should I use the 10amp or 16amp" you are probably way over your head in the design process.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Need Help Finding a External Panel Mount GFCI

                Originally posted by johncameron View Post
                All electrical devices and assemblies must be approved. Yes, the AHJ has the final say so, but the UL is the most widely recognized testing lab around. No, They are not the only game in town, there are others, But I will bet good money the breaker you find will be "listed".
                No you don't have to. Per UL:

                Do I need to have the UL Mark on my product in the United States? Is there a law stating that my product should have a UL Mark? Does our product require UL testing?

                Manufacturers submit products to UL for testing and safety certification on a voluntary basis. There are no laws specifying that a UL Mark must be used. However, in the United States there are many municipalities that have laws, codes or regulations which require a product to be tested by a nationally recognized testing laboratory before it can be sold in their area. UL is the largest and oldest nationally recognized testing laboratory in the United States. UL does not, however, maintain a list of the jurisdictions having such regulations.
                If you plan to market your product nationally or internationally, it is advisable to obtain UL Listing. If a limited marketing program is anticipated, check with the municipal office having jurisdiction in the particular areas to learn the local retail ordinances or product installation requirements applicable in that area.
                Many companies make it their policy to obtain UL Listing not only to minimize the possibility of local non-acceptance, but also as a matter of corporate policy and commitment to minimize the possibility of risk in the use of their products

                No offense but, If you have to ask "should I use the 10amp or 16amp" you are probably way over your head in the design process.
                Wouldn't it be better to help than hinder? If I had an 8 amp load, the numbers say that I could use either one. But, it may be better to have a larger one for future upgrades of the item or for another electrical reason - like running at 80% of max amps?
                ~~

                ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Need Help Finding a External Panel Mount GFCI

                  FYI:
                  The switch in the former Navien products was a ELCB (Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker), not a GFCI

                  Fugi SG-30B (in the older Naviens)

                  Earth leakage circuit breaker (ELCB) is an electrical wiring device that disconnects a circuit whenever it detects a significant voltage relative to earths ground sometimes caused by current leakage through the body of a person who is grounded and accidentally touching the energized part of the circuit.

                  Known to be more sensitive when used with water products. However sensitive to Sine waves resulting in nuisance trips.
                  ELCB manufacturers include: Major Tech, Fuji Electric, Schneider Electric, Legrand, Havells, ABB, Siemens AG, Areva T&D, Camsco, Telemecanique, Orion Italia, Crabtree, MEM, Terasaki.
                  Last edited by Lee H; 09-08-2013, 12:17 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Need Help Finding a External Panel Mount GFCI

                    Originally posted by Plumber Punky View Post
                    No you don't have to. Per UL:
                    Wouldn't it be better to help than hinder? If I had an 8 amp load, the numbers say that I could use either one. But, it may be better to have a larger one for future upgrades of the item or for another electrical reason - like running at 80% of max amps?
                    I never said it had to be UL listed. I said it "must be approved". The most widely recognized testing lab in the US is the UL, period. Breakers are listed per NEMA (I have not seen one in 30 years that was not) which means you have to follow their listing requirements. If it says it's designed for x, you need to use it as x.
                    Again, not enough info to give an accurate answer. It would be like asking you "what kind of water tank do I need" without giving any detail.

                    Overcurrent protective devices are selected by determining the load,not the other way around. The load has to be calculated (which does not mean adding up the amps), OCPD selection varies depending on the type of load, where used, available fault current, ambient temp..etc

                    Sorry you think I was being a hindrance. I think an honest opinion is the best favor one can give.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Need Help Finding a External Panel Mount GFCI

                      This is much more complete information. Thank you.

                      Resources from other certification agencies say approval is made easier by assembling a product using previously approved components - breakers, disconnects, fittings, boxes, etc.

                      Looks like I need to get all my stuff together first, determine full load, then get my safety device. Do you have a preference for the easiest company to have an approval done? Many other forums have people saying that UL is a nightmare to work with.
                      ~~

                      ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Need Help Finding a External Panel Mount GFCI

                        It looks like you plan to assemble your system from pre-made components but in the event you want to design your own GFCI for better integration for what you have in mind, companies like Maxim semiconductor make the necessary ICs for implementing a GFCI but of course you will need to design the current imbalance detector and a bunch of other external stuff. You can browse their website and see what it takes to design one. I had a datasheet somewhere for a GFCI design but not sure where it is at the moment. Of course if you are not versed in circuit design you may need to hire an electronics engineer to design this for you plus it will need to go through the certification process.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Need Help Finding a External Panel Mount GFCI

                          Yes, the advantages of designing it electronically is size. It can make your widget from the size of a shoebox, down to the size of a zippo lighter (showing my age here)

                          But, I would start by doing a patent search on your idea with only a rough sketch of the circuit and a detailed description of how it should work. The details, design and specs can be further developed during or after the patent search.(It can takes years) It will protect your idea, and you can have piece of mind knowing the electrician or engineer you work with will not steal your idea. What often happens is you find out someone already thought of it. On the flip side, you will own the patent first and you are entitled to the credit, even if someone comes out with a completed prototype.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Need Help Finding a External Panel Mount GFCI

                            I don't want to design the actual components. There are pre-fab boxes I can use to house the parts which are also already approved and which are small enough as to make the product streamlined. A patent quick search showed there are products similar to what I am doing but not the same. The patent web site also said that an item is patentable if it's the same as another product but it has to significantly improve the design.

                            My patent lawyer charges up to $3500 for the process.

                            P.S. Zippos are iconic and are still made as durable as they always were.
                            ~~

                            ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Need Help Finding a External Panel Mount GFCI

                              As I hold a few patents myself I have been through that process a few times - however, they were done while I was employed by the company who took care of filing the patents, had the lawyer do the patent searches etc. So I did not not do an awful lot other than present the original ideas and then sign the final forms and so on.

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