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  • Old Wagner motor

    Last edited by thatWolf Guy; 04-24-2016, 09:42 PM. Reason: Problem resolved

  • #2
    I do not know how old this motor is ?, is it single phase or three phase, what are the voltages on the motor name plate, what is the stated phase? what is the amp rating? is there indication of the rotation? what does the name plate say, what is the voltages, does it say reversible, or just CW or CCW, and or could this be a DC motor? or duel speed?

    but if it is dual voltage, my thinking would be the red and black would be the line and the two other wires would be tied together, but the colors of the other two wires gives me the thought that may not be correct, (as in the picture of the name plate below.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    (it in my thinking would be a very rare unit) but any possibility is it two phase, really not used since the early early 1900's, according to the articular below it appears it could be used in a few places on the east coast, it is a possibility still used in limited places,)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power

    most power is either single phase or three phase in the USA,

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    other thoughts,

    could the two extra wires the orange and green be for a capacitor?

    and if I would follow the modern US code for wire color the green or green yellow stripe wire would be a ground, http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/text...g-color-codes/

    and orange could/would indicate a high leg in a three phase circuit,



    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    picture of old vintage Wagner motor
    http://vintagemachinery.org/photoind....aspx?id=15577
    Click image for larger version

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    I will do a little looking in a old motor rewinding book,
    I have and I have a motor that has the centrifugal switch for starting in the shop (similar to the pictures of the one I posted) see if it could give any clues,
    Last edited by BHD; 04-18-2016, 10:30 AM.
    Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
    attributed to Samuel Johnson
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

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    • #3
      I think what you have is a repulsion start, induction run, motor,

      I think the wiring would be as in the picture I posted, I went to the shop, this was a century motor, and looked at the old motor I have in the shop, which is a repulsion start unit as well, 4 wires, one was green and and what looked like 3 redish/brown wires, (this motor was set to operate on 120), and was wired as in the picture, will try to get a picture of the wiring after dinner here, the wires were in a holder and the four wires (the two on one side were together and to the line, and the two on the other side together to the line, I went to the wood shop and I have GE on the jointer and on the name plate it showed the two out side as the lines and for high voltage T1 and T4 went to the line, and T2 and t3 were tied together, show as they were, in the drawing on the name plate it was T!, T2, T3, and T4, (I did not open up the location where the wires come out,) to see if there marked by labels or by color),


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      and as I started to think about to reverse the rotation one has to shift the brush holder (did this about 40 years ago), so I do not remember all the details, but looking on google I see there are posts on reversal as well as U tubes, below are two pictures of a Wagner motor wired for 120, http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthr...fpart=all&vc=1

      just a guess here, but looking at the holder in the first picture below, (it looks like the black and the green on the two out sides of the holder would be a T1, and T4, and the two middle as T2 and T3, my first atempt would be to hook line 1 and green, and line 2 to black and yellow and red together, (but like I said that is a guess)


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      maybe I will try to get a picture of the old motor in the barn, but it is wired for 120 but it will show the wire holder,
      but it is nto much different than the picture above but harder to see and a different brand
      Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
      attributed to Samuel Johnson
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

      Comment


      • #4
        if you followed the link that was the way the other motor in that post was wired, (possibly from the factory),

        I really do not know what is RIGHT,

        but when I was down in the shop fixing tires, I took a continuity meter and checked out the old century motor I have,

        and it was clear there was two wire that had continuity on one side, I will call them A and C, (even tho they were not marked), and two wires on the other, side, B and D) ( if one goes up to the drawing above, if on 120 those two would have to be powered parallel and on 240 in series. ( think I am saying that correctly)

        take a look at the pink framed picture, there are windings, in the motor, and you have two coils, each 120 volt in design,
        (using the picture) If I hook T1 and T2 to one side of the 120 and t3 and t4 to the other leg of the power, the motor will not run as the electricity has no place to go as the coils are connected to the same palace on it is just a loop no out let for the power to flow a dead end, and by hooking T1 and T3 together, and T2 and T4 to the other 120 volt leg you have two coils working side by side,

        if running 120 volts the electricity has to flow through both of them but since you only have 120 volts they have to work side by side,
        on 220 they have to teamed up the long way one in front of the other so the 220 voltage is distributed in the coils correctly,

        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

        but I have no way of knowing what on you motor that make up a coil A or coil B, if on 220 the need to hooked end to end and on 120 they need to be side by side,

        so I do not know what colors to hook to where, take a continuity tester and see what wires make a coil a and then decide what voltage you want to run the motor on, and wire it accordingly,

        at this point that is all the help I can give you, the motor is not setting in my shop, I can not run a continuity test on it to see the wire that make up the oils and can not find more on the net,

        (my guess the Wagner motor in the picture is wired correctly since the blog I took form said it was running the link is there read it for your self, http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthr...fpart=all&vc=1
        the poster gave a link the post where he got help. http://owwm.org/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=163279 one will need to register at Old wood working machinery to view it looks like,


        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

        If you can not figure it out take to a motor shop that rewinds motors and get there help

        the last time I worked on one was nearly 40 years ago, (and at that time I took it to a motor shop to be check out), the one in the shop I can not test as the centrifugal switch is not working, and since the color code is not the same I doubt it would help you any, if i did test it out for 220 or 120,








        Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
        attributed to Samuel Johnson
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

        Comment


        • #5
          for low voltage operation hook up two wires to one line wire, and the other two to the other line wire, it it runs it is wired correct and if it does not swap wires so there are new pairs of wires and hook them up to the line wires.

          I went down and tried it on the old motor (would not kick out of start) but if hooked with the wrong pairing the power goes no were like I said hooked up correct it runs,

          the truth of the matter is what you have is a Scrap motor, (that is about the most it is worth), your not going to hurt it, and even a replacement 1/2 hp in a 56 frame one can buy a used on off of Ebay for under $50. for example below, two listings,

          http://www.ebay.com/itm/Marathon-Ele...UAAOSw3mpXFOvV

          http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dayton-1-2-h...3D172163631621

          Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
          attributed to Samuel Johnson
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

          Comment


          • #6
            you can try this link click on the down load and it will down load a PDF file called electric motor repair, on page 45 starts the section near the end shows some of the wrong way to wire the motor, still no color codes.
            https://www.dropbox.com/s/ytbpv9nbmo...tions.pdf?dl=0



            from the guy that posted the book on the other forum, http://owwm.org/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=163279 same place the pictures were from original on the Wagner motor above.

            The way the motor is wired is for 110 Vac operation. You don't have to pay any attention to the wire colors if your going to run your saw on 110. Keep the motor wires paired the way they are then just hook the black hot wire of your switch pigtail to one set of the connected wires (say, black and (white?)) and the neutral to the other set (red and green). It really doesn't matter which to which though for this motor. Make sure you run your ground to the motor frame and it's not insulated by years of paint! In your switch box, switch only the black hot wire for 110v. I always land the ground at the switch location as well (inside the switch box).
            Last edited by BHD; 04-18-2016, 10:12 PM.
            Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
            attributed to Samuel Johnson
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

            Comment


            • #7
              If you have an ohm meter, using BHD's diagram, you should be able to tell which wires are which.

              Comment


              • #8
                Sorry, I missed that part. However AC motors have no polarity.

                Comment


                • #9
                  You apparently don't understand what Is meant by Polarity. As in DC as opposed to AC.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    From what I can see, and under stand about the repulsion induction motor, (In the 1946 manual I posted with information on the replusion induction motor the term they use is Polarity, as referring to the poles of the motor,
                    regardless if the coils are hooked up wrong there will be a situation where the magnetic polarity will not be in harmony in the motor, out of phase or opposite polarity,

                    True AC does not have a polarity as does DC, but it does have polarity in the magantitism it produces, even if it flips 60 times a second, (or 50 cycles), and if the coils are not working together the motor will not operate correctly,

                    the same for speakers in a stereo, if one cone is going in and the other speaker going out the sound produced is nearly canceled, and speakers are a form of AC, the same as with the motor if the 4 coils or poles of the motor are not working together the motor will not run properly or with power,

                    SO I do think he has the concept correct and it is possibly the modern usage of the terms, as in the booklet it uses the term of polarity, modern usage could use the term phase, the poles are in or out of Phase,

                    ON page 68 of the manual I posted, it shows than the coils can be hooked up wrong producing the wrong polarity of the coil,
                    Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                    attributed to Samuel Johnson
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      You keep using your terminology. I'll stick with what I know. There are many discussions about AC voltage and Polarity on the Internet if you care to read about it. But since your the one asking the question and now your the teacher, I'll just bow out of this conversation before I say something I shouldn't.

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