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  • #16
    Originally posted by MD MASTER SPARKY
    Huge Liability Here

    Go Ton Local Supply House And Purchase A Panel And Install The Cover On The Existing Panel
    Chances Are That You Will Not Be Able To Find A Cover Alone

    I Would Under No Circumstances Fabricate One
    That is what I would almost call useful advice, once you get past all the arrogant BS.

    WWS
    Still enjoying all 10 fingers!

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    • #17
      Polar Sparky I did know that about arc- fault breakers but i was told by two seperate inspectors that they can't be in the same slot.

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      • #18
        Last edited by Polar Sparky 1224; 02-28-2006, 12:43 AM.
        "Diplomacy is saying nice dodging until you can find a rock." Will Rogers
        "If a Monkey can do your job, are you in the right profession?

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        • #19
          [QUOTE=Polar Sparky 1224]I'm not sure what you know and don't know just don't take anything i say personal. It's hard to find it in the code book but there is a reason you can't have you ground wires on the same bar as the neutrals. The ground is meant to be an independent path to earth. Your neutral is meant to carry the return current back. QUOTE]

          Sometimes the grounding bar is bonded to the grounded bar, other times it is seperated. If you don't know when it is, or why it is, then why give advice?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Polar Sparky 1224
            The ground is meant to be an independent path to earth. ... Inside new panels you have a grounding bar that does not tie into your power it goes outside usually on 4 awg wire and clamps onto a 6' or longer grounding rod.
            That's not correct. The Equipment Grounding Conductor's (EGC's) purpose:
            250.4(A)(3) Bonding of Electrical Equipment. Non–current-carrying conductive materials enclosing electrical conductors or equip-ment, or forming part of such equipment, shall be connected together and to the electrical supply source in a manner that establishes an effective ground-fault current path.

            250.4(A)(5) Effective Ground-Fault Current Path. Electrical equipment and wiring and other electrically conductive material likely to become energized shall be installed in a manner that creates a permanent, low-impedance circuit facilitating the operation of the overcurrent device or ground detector for high-impedance grounded systems. It shall be capable of safely carrying the maximum ground-fault current likely to be imposed on it from any point on
            the wiring system where a ground fault may occur to the electrical supply source. The earth shall not be considered as an effective ground-fault current path.
            The equipment's connection to earth is incidental, it's not the primary function of that conductor.

            The primary function of that conductor is to trip overcurrent devices if a ground fault develops. It's the connection of the service's neutral to the EGC's that allow them to do their job. The earth has nothing to do with it.

            The term "Equipment Grounding Conductor" is a misnomer, that will likely be changed to "Equipment Bonding Conductor" in the 2008 code cycle. It was held for review from the 2005's cycle. Hopefully they follow through, because the name throws a lot of good electricians into confusion.

            Edit to add:

            To ensure that "objectionable current" is kept off the EGC's, they are to be connected to the neutral once at the service, and kept seperate after that. So, if the panel is at the first means of disconnecting power, then you'll see the neutrals and grounds connected at that point.

            Common practice around here is to install a meter/main disconnect outside, and then pull a feeder with two hots, a neutral, and a 'ground' to the interior panel. The neutrals and 'grounds' are kept seperate in the panel in that case.

            Another section to note:
            408.41 Grounded Conductor Terminations. Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an indi-vidual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.
            Every neutral gets it's own screw. You should never see a 'ground' and a neutral landed under the same screw. On the same bar, maybe, but never under the same screw.
            Last edited by Rocky Mountain Sparky; 02-27-2006, 08:34 AM.

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            • #21
              I was looking into that and you need to have separate bars for the neutrals and the ground wires but you can have a jumper connecting the two when you have feeders powering another panel. I was wrong on that part. I have never put a jumper in and never thought that was acceptable. But in the code it is allowed when called for. That is mentioned in one of the references i put up earlier. If i am still off in any way please tell me the code reference(s).
              "Diplomacy is saying nice dodging until you can find a rock." Will Rogers
              "If a Monkey can do your job, are you in the right profession?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Polarsparky
                I was looking into that and you need to have separate bars for the neutrals and the ground wires but you can have a jumper connecting the two when you have feeders powering another panel.
                Where are you looking? This statement is incorrect.

                To keep this brief, here's the summary:
                • The grounding conductors and neutrals are to be connected once, at the service disconnect. (250.24(B))
                • The grounding & neutral conductors are not supposed to come in contact with each other after that. (250.6(A))
                • Neutrals are not to be used as grounding conductors. (250.142(B))

                Grounding conductors should appear at the very first switch in a structure, and be connected to the neutrals there. Beyond that, they should be seperate.

                If you open a panel and see them connected, you should look outside and find the power company's meter with no breaker out there. Return to the panel and you'll probably find that less than six breakers shut off all the loads in the house. Usually just one breaker shuts everything off in this case.

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                • #23
                  Panelbox cover missing help!!!

                  Finally got a camera to take a picture---hopefully someone knows what type of panelbox this is. I don't know if the panel is original but I doubt it, my house is about 50 years old. The previous owner did a bunch of remodeling, and it seems it must of been added when they put in the full basement. The panelbox is in a locked area so fingers won't get in, but I'd like to get a cover on it in case a breaker trips. I believe most, if not all the breakers are from Crouse Hinds---but I'm not tall enough to see the top ones and I'm not interested in standing on something trying to get closer. How many breakers can go into this panel? What else do I need to know in order to figure out what this thing is? Any help would greatly be appreciated!

                  http://www.geocities.com/davidbriggs123/panel.html

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    cinnamon, i'm a plumber and i do better electrical work than what i see in your photo.

                    first off it's a newer panel. not 50 years old. a crouse hinds can be found at home depot. it's a cheaper type of panel. you defitnatly need to put the cover on to protect someone from contacting the open buss bars. also looks like the ground and neutrals are on a common buss. not too sure if a wire nut is legal in a panel box? the romex sheath (cover) should have been cut much cleaner and not allowed to poke into the box.

                    the wiring looks like a plate of spaggetti. also the open spacing between the breakers is not good. typically you stack the breakers and leave the extra spaces at the bottom for future use. it appears to hold 40 breakers max.

                    you might check with home depot for a replacement cover and door. or you might just have to purchase a new panel and swap out the cover and door.

                    let see what the pro sparkies say
                    phoebe it is

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I also see 2 double breakers in there with only 1 side being used. I would really like to know who installed this the old home owner or a sparky( would bet on the home owner). There are even white wires hooked to a breaker!
                      Last edited by TOD; 03-06-2006, 04:53 AM.
                      SSG, U.S. Army
                      Retired
                      K.I.S.S., R.T.F.M.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK
                        you might check with home depot for a replacement cover and door. or you might just have to purchase a new panel and swap out the cover and door.
                        I would bet, that panel is old enough for you not to be to find a replacement cover.


                        Originally posted by TOD
                        I also see 2 double breakers in there with only 1 side being used. I would really like to know who installed this the old home owner or a sparky( would bet on the home owner). There are even white wires hooked to a breaker!
                        Looks like a typical DIY panel to me. My advice, hire an electrical contractor!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I wouldn't hold out much hope for Home Depot getting a replacement cover, either. That panel looks very similar to panels I've seen that were thirty years old. That panel's grandkids, Siemens, are currently for sale at Home Depot.

                          You need to get an electrician in there to check out why you have two whites on that panel (and maybe pay to get it cleaned up!) There's some potential safety issues there.

                          Minuteman, would you believe I've actually seen apprentices trained to do that spagetti crap, so that "there'll be wire in case of a panel swap someday"?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Rocky Mountain Sparky

                            You need to get an electrician in there to check out why you have two whites on that panel (and maybe pay to get it cleaned up!) There's some potential safety issues there.
                            i looked at the close up of that photo and you can see that only 1 white wire is connected to a 2 pole 30 amp 240 volt circuit. what is lacking is color tape to id the wire as a hot. i assume that the other end at the load is not taped either. from a photo comparison it appears that the wires on this 30 amp circuit is only 12 gauge, when you compare them to the other size wires.

                            the other white is actually a loop caught behind the buss from upper to lower.

                            looks like a jack of all trades and master of none.

                            i had to correct 3 electricians and a gc today to move 3 outlets that were installed 2' above the floor and behind the 3 different dishwashers. told them to move them into the sink cabinets so they can be accessable. the
                            amazing thing was that they didn't see anything wrong with it. of course the drywall was already installed, but no cabinets yet.

                            was i right, or were they wrong

                            rick.
                            phoebe it is

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                            • #29
                              It depends on what you consider "accessible." Which is different than "readily accessible." Behind the dishwasher is often considered accessible.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Rocky Mountain Sparky
                                It depends on what you consider "accessible." Which is different than "readily accessible." Behind the dishwasher is often considered accessible.
                                not when it's 2' up the wall and you have to remove the dishwasher to plug or unplug it. i havn't seen this and i've installed thousands and thousands of dishwashers. both new construction and private residential.

                                by the way, these electricians also left out 5 outlets in the kitchen that were on the plan. the owner caught it after the drywall was done.

                                i only noticed this as a favor to the owner, as i was there to snake out a toilet. i'm not the plumber on this job.

                                rick.
                                phoebe it is

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