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  • #31
    THANKS

    GUYS, I APOLOGIZE IF I OFFENDED ANYONE (WAS NOT MY INTENTION)

    ANYWAY I AM A LICENSED MASTER AND AM AVAILABLE FOR SOME ADVICE
    JUST IM OR EMAIL

    REGUARDLESS I THINK THIS THREAD WAS GREAT I ENJOYED IT

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    • #32
      I'm glad everything worked its way out. And I am glad you decided to stick around MD.

      Later,

      Josh

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      • #33
        TURN OFF THE CAPS LOCK KEY!!! Online were people can not tell if you are speaking normal or YELLING you use the CAPS LOCK to indicate YELLING (very rude)
        Colorado Deck and Framing - When perfection is demanded

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        • #34
          About the death...

          Originally posted by TOD
          Now isn't the service panel screwed to the house studs?
          No, bonding non-structural steel framing to the electrical system is not required by the NEC. For the moment, it's considered impractical to attempt to bond them together. The NEC has strict guidelines for bonding connections, and the current methods for constructing non-load-bearing steel-stud walls are simply not up to that standard. The current construction methods can't be relied upon for this purpose.

          (I recognize the irony, that the very "questionable" connections that prevented a jumper from being required, resulted in the death of a man by the same exact connections. The aren't good enough to save lives, but they're sufficient to take them.)

          If an electrician were required to make a good bonding connection, an electrician would have to install jumpers between every single stud, every piece that wasn't bonded good enough to it's neighbor on it's own. It would take forever. A proper installation should be equally safe.

          Plastic bushings are used for running romex through steel studs (to prevent the studs from damaging the romex), and romex is required to be installed so that no point is closer than 1.25" to the nearest edge where screws and nails are likely to penetrate (NEC 300.4).

          So, either someone used excessively long screws in the electrocution linked to, or the licensed electrician who installed the wiring did not maintain the code-required safe distance.

          This death likely had nothing to do with a Do-It-Yourselfer, unless it happened to be the guy who used 4" drywall screws to install a medicine cabinet. Just my opinion.

          Comment


          • #35
            working on live circuits.

            PLEASE PLEASE, those of you who are not licensed electricians. While Polar Sparky said he knows how to and has worked on live electrical circuits, all others should NOT try that trick at home. Here's why. A while back, I was installing some light fixtures for a customer and checked wires with tick tracer that showed wires were NOT hot. Did not shut down breaker because of this. Was working in a box that was supposedly cold and downstream from the switch and tracer still showing not hot. Got a 92 volt jolt from left arm to right arm because neutral wire was being used as a common neutral with an adjoining circuit. This will really light up your life, especially from one arm to another, so working on any live circuits when you are not 1000% sure they aren't carrying some current from another fixture is risky business guys. Just my two cents worth and hope it helps. Jim D.

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            • #36
              I do believe that electrians are a bunch of arrogant pricks... I guess folowing the logic in most of this post NO ONE but PROFESIONALS should do anything. Like plumbing, electrical work, framing, deck building, drywall, excavation, concrete, roofing, siding, DRIVING. I could go on and on and on and on and on and on and on. But I should not have to. Lets kind of looks this over as wierd as some of this may sound it could happen. If you dont vent pumbing properly you could have improper venting can cause toilet water to get siphoned into your drinking water. Electrical work can cause electrocution. Framing if not done properly or by inexperianced workers a wall could fall if not braced properly and kill someone. Trusses could be blown off a house and kill someone if not done properly. Decks fall off houses all the time and people get hurt and killed. drywall you may have some idiot put a 12' sheet on a vaulted ceiling and only put 4 nails in it and it fall off and hurt someone or kill them. Excavation you may puncture a gas line and blow up yourslef and others. Concrete not properly setting up forms could cause them to fail while pouring and hurt someone or maybe kill them. Roofing someone could fall off the roof hurting or killing them, improper nailing may cause a shingle to go airborne in high winds and hurt or kill someone. Siding improper nailing may result in a piece coming off and hurting or killing someone. And the most important thing of all LOTS of people are killed by cars EVERYDAY so I think maybe you should only take a bus, taxi, limo to work eveyday. After all these people DRIVE for a living they must be better than all of us DIY DRIVERS!!!! OH NO!!! Of this long list I SEE TIME AND TIME AGIAN the electrians are the bigest complainers and winers about DIY stuff I dont complain and wine everytime someone says "I want to build a deck any pointers?" I always respond with "I would be happy to give you advice let me know what parts you need help with and PLEASE check with your local building department and get the required permits and inspections" But I guess if I had chosen to be an electrian I would have to respond "NO YOU WILL KILL YOURSELF AND BILLIONS OF OTHER PEOPLE HIRE A QUALIFED PERSON!!!!"
              Colorado Deck and Framing - When perfection is demanded

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              • #37
                Originally posted by RobertCDF
                I do believe that electrians are a bunch of arrogant pricks...
                Hey, watch it, bub. I'm trying to be helpful over here.

                Aside from that comment, I agree with the rest of your post.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Sorry it should say "Most electrians are arrogant pricks" Not all are but a good amount. BTW this is not the only forum that I have met these type of electrians on.
                  Colorado Deck and Framing - When perfection is demanded

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Rocky Mountain Sparky
                    No, bonding non-structural steel framing to the electrical system is not required by the NEC. For the moment, it's considered impractical to attempt to bond them together. The NEC has strict guidelines for bonding connections, and the current methods for constructing non-load-bearing steel-stud walls are simply not up to that standard. The current construction methods can't be relied upon for this purpose.


                    If an electrician were required to make a good bonding connection, an electrician would have to install jumpers between every single stud, every piece that wasn't bonded good enough to it's neighbor on it's own. It would take forever. A proper installation should be equally safe.
                    I came across a similar thing a few years ago. I was working in a dentist when I noticed my volt stick lit up whenever I went near an isolated section of wall. I found that one of the screws holding an outlet on had pierced a live conductor thereby making that whole section of steel frame live. It hadn't tripped a breaker because it was an isolated section of wall, not joined on to any other metal frames.

                    We also have rules here in Australia to try to prevent this sort of thing happening but none of them helps if someone uses an extra long screw.
                    I like to run an earth to any isolated metal frames that have live conductors in them, although I'll admit I often forget to do it because it's not a code requirement.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by JimDon
                      PLEASE PLEASE, those of you who are not licensed electricians. While Polar Sparky said he knows how to and has worked on live electrical circuits, all others should NOT try that trick at home. Here's why. A while back, I was installing some light fixtures for a customer and checked wires with tick tracer that showed wires were NOT hot. Did not shut down breaker because of this. Was working in a box that was supposedly cold and downstream from the switch and tracer still showing not hot. Got a 92 volt jolt from left arm to right arm because neutral wire was being used as a common neutral with an adjoining circuit. This will really light up your life, especially from one arm to another, so working on any live circuits when you are not 1000% sure they aren't carrying some current from another fixture is risky business guys. Just my two cents worth and hope it helps. Jim D.
                      Totally true, i new which was hot and caped off the ends of the neutral and hots. I've never been zapped by 277 volts for a reason! The shared neutral carries the return current and will hurt. The one time i was shocked was in residential when someone turned on the room i was working in. Not a pleasant feeling when you can barley move your arm and you can feel the humming sensation in it too.

                      NEVER ASSUME THAT THE POWER IS OFF, even if you checked it and then walked off to fix something and come back 2 minutes later, test it again. Its a good habit to test anything even if you think it is off!
                      "Diplomacy is saying nice dodging until you can find a rock." Will Rogers
                      "If a Monkey can do your job, are you in the right profession?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Ever heard of "Lockout/Tagout" ?

                        I know that you have, for those that are not familiar with the program, here's some background and training information from OSHA;

                        http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/lototraining/index.htm

                        It is easy to think that in a residential environment you are 'safer' than in commercial or industrial settings, but in reality I'd bet the opposite is true.
                        "When we build let us think we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work that our descendants will thank us for, and let us think, as we lay stone upon stone, that a time is to come when these stones will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, "See! This our fathers did for us."
                        John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

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                        • #42
                          Great minds...etc...etc

                          How about hanging a tag on the breaker that says "If you turn on this breaker I will (fill in appropriate form of torture or death here) you.
                          Lorax
                          "Did you put the yellow key in the switch?" TOD 01/09/06

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                          • #43
                            "How about hanging a tag on the breaker "

                            That's what the lockout/tagout program is all about.

                            Of course, the tag with the threat to do bodily harm on it if the tagout is violated only works if you live to follow through and carry it out

                            It's better to place some physical blocking device on the breaker, valve, what have you to ensure that some dummy doesn't ruin your day.

                            And as was stated by Polar Sparky; "NEVER ASSUME THAT THE POWER IS OFF, even if you checked it and then walked off to fix something and come back 2 minutes later, test it again. Its a good habit to test anything even if you think it is off!"

                            This is another part of the lockout/tagout program. The person performing the work and who is to be protected by the tagout is as responsible for ensuring they are safe. You can not depend on anyone else. Your safety is ultimately your responsibility.
                            "When we build let us think we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work that our descendants will thank us for, and let us think, as we lay stone upon stone, that a time is to come when these stones will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, "See! This our fathers did for us."
                            John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              A while back, I suggested that RIDGID (Josh) add a safety forum. While it would be helpful to have "safety" posts and threads in one place, safety should be of paramount concern in every project we undertake no matter how small or insignificant.

                              Anyone, as a DIYer, should err on the side of common sense when projects that they are attempting start to look like it is too much for them to handle.
                              That does not mean ask your buddy who just added a ceiling fan to his den, but consult a qualified, licensed professional. In our area, just about anything more than changing out a simple device (switch or outlet) requires a licensed pro.

                              Keep in mind that they tend to sell tools to anyone!!! That in mind, having tools does not equate to having basic common sense or knowledge. This is especially true of electricity. Even the professionals occasionally are careless and they pay for that carelessness.

                              Electrical safety has become a "pet" of mine.
                              You see, in August 04, I lost my 21 year old son to a CAT IV electrocution.
                              This event was in direct fact due to lack of training.

                              So let's be careful out there!
                              Phil
                              Tools Rule

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                [quote=Bob D.]"How about hanging a tag on the breaker "

                                That's what the lockout/tagout program is all about. Yes Bob, I know. Remember, I lived with the system for 25 yrs.

                                Of course, the tag with the threat to do bodily harm on it if the tagout is violated only works if you live to follow through and carry it out It should certainly keep someone from accidentally or out of ignorance turning on the breaker.

                                It's better to place some physical blocking device on the breaker, valve, what have you to ensure that some dummy doesn't ruin your day. I totally agree. Just thought it might be difficult to lock-out a residential breaker.

                                And as was stated by Polar Sparky; "NEVER ASSUME THAT THE POWER IS OFF, even if you checked it and then walked off to fix something and come back 2 minutes later, test it again. Its a good habit to test anything even if you think it is off!"

                                This is another part of the lockout/tagout program. The person performing the work and who is to be protected by the tagout is as responsible for ensuring they are safe. You can not depend on anyone else. Your safety is ultimately your responsibility.Amen, my friend.[/quote]

                                10 characters
                                Lorax
                                "Did you put the yellow key in the switch?" TOD 01/09/06

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