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  • Electrical Liability

    Okay, this is a pretty nice disclaimer:

    RIDGE TOOL COMPANY DOES NOT WARRANT THE ACCURACY OR COMPETENESS OF THE MATERIALS, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE RELIABILITY OF ANY ADVICE, STATEMENT OR OTHER INFORMATION DISPLAYED OR DISTRIBUTED THROUGH THE SITE. YOU ACKNOWLEDGE BY THE USE OF THE SITE THAT ANY RELIANCE ON ANY SUCH MATERIALS, ADVICE, STATEMENT OR INFORMATION SHALL BE AT YOUR SOLE RISK

    But, what about the liability from you Do-it-yourselfer's? What if some goof ball actually sticks voltage in the ground to ward of rodents, and ends up frying somebody?

    I can understand helping a plumbing DIY, after all - wost that could happen is somebody might get wet. But do y'all also answer natural gas piping questions? I would hope not.

    Go ahead and help somebody unstop a stool. But leave the dangerous stuff to a professional. Man... If I gave out the kind of advice that I have read on this board, and somebody got hurt, I would not be able to sleep anymore.

    Electrical wiring is not a hobby.

  • #2
    What I am saying is this. I don't know this MD guy, and he come off WAY too strong, but I agree with the fact that electrical DIY is dangerous. And in this state, illegal.

    I have seen some pretty scary things that were done by home owners, handy men, and carpenters.

    It's kinda like having a Mechanic forum, where some paint-n-body guys says, "My brake system don't work, so hows about I rig up a cable and pulley connected to my caliper?"

    One the other hand, if a genuine electrician wants to give away free advice to DIY, who does it hurt? Unless the advice is only partially followed.

    To me, this forum is a mistake.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Minuteman
      What I am saying is this. I don't know this MD guy, and he come off WAY too strong, but I agree with the fact that electrical DIY is dangerous. And in this state, illegal.
      In one of the other threads here, a plumber made a compelling case against DIY plumbing. I would have never guessed. In Colorado, DIY electrical is permitted on your own home. It varies state by state.

      I have seen some pretty scary things that were done by home owners, handy men, and carpenters.
      I've also seen journeymen make exceptionally scary comments. I was on a commercial job for a day, filling a day between houses. My coworker started to strip out a panel, and asked the j-man for a grounding bar for the panel. He was told to use one of the neutral bars and remove the jumper between the two bars. My coworker agreed, and then asked, "So do you have a strap to bond the can with?"

      "You don't have to use a strap, it's after the first means of disconnect," the j-man told him.

      This is the same guy who bragged about how much he knew, how he'd done everything, seen everything, housemonkeys are morons, yada yada yada. It took a long moment for the guy to realize that without a strap, the can of the panel would not be bonded. How many panels had this guy completed that are potential shock hazards?

      One the other hand, if a genuine electrician wants to give away free advice to DIY, who does it hurt?
      Would you say having real electricians on hand to dispense advice would be acceptable?

      Comment


      • #4
        If you read something from an old book and try it who's fault was it? Is it the author who could be long dead or the person that tried to to something he was not capable of doing.

        Point being if you do something stupid it is your own fault. If you think something is not safe don't do it and then say "well he told me to..." I have worked with people like that.

        In the end you are responsible for your own safety, accidents do happen but usually life goes on and you learn from your mistakes. Unfortunately you can also learn from the fatal mistakes of others.
        "Diplomacy is saying nice dodging until you can find a rock." Will Rogers
        "If a Monkey can do your job, are you in the right profession?

        Comment


        • #5
          how about going to HD and getting a book on electric is HD at fault ?

          i would rather ask an electrician for help instead of misinterpret it from a book

          i think we have some very qualified electricians on this site that will make sure some one does not give out some bad advice

          and that goes for plumbers ,wood workers ect
          Charlie

          My seek the peek fundraiser page
          http://observatory.mountwashington.o...nal&fr_id=1040


          http://www.mountwashington.org/weather/conditions.php

          new work pictures 12/09
          http://public.fotki.com/hvachawk/

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Minuteman
            Okay, this is a pretty nice disclaimer:

            RIDGE TOOL COMPANY DOES NOT WARRANT THE ACCURACY OR COMPETENESS OF THE MATERIALS, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE RELIABILITY OF ANY ADVICE, STATEMENT OR OTHER INFORMATION DISPLAYED OR DISTRIBUTED THROUGH THE SITE. YOU ACKNOWLEDGE BY THE USE OF THE SITE THAT ANY RELIANCE ON ANY SUCH MATERIALS, ADVICE, STATEMENT OR INFORMATION SHALL BE AT YOUR SOLE RISK

            But, what about the liability from you Do-it-yourselfer's? What if some goof ball actually sticks voltage in the ground to ward of rodents, and ends up frying somebody?

            I can understand helping a plumbing DIY, after all - wost that could happen is somebody might get wet. But do y'all also answer natural gas piping questions? I would hope not.

            Go ahead and help somebody unstop a stool. But leave the dangerous stuff to a professional. Man... If I gave out the kind of advice that I have read on this board, and somebody got hurt, I would not be able to sleep anymore.

            Electrical wiring is not a hobby.
            minuteman, wait a second before you think that plumbing is not dangerous.

            so as to not have to repeat or rewrite my prior post, please read the
            "md master" thread #12 and #16.

            maybe someday you might learn that there is more to plumbing than chasing turds.

            by the way which way to you unscrew a light bulb? was that righty tighty or lefty loosey

            life started without electricty.
            without clean potable water, life would end.

            amazing how little some electricians know about plumbing or other trades.
            i guess all you need to know is what pipe is the cold one to ground to. even then we have to run the pipe towards your panels.

            i guess some of us turd chasers should start to post in the greenlee forums.
            wouldn't want to have an electrician get wet.

            amazing how 1 little post over the mole gets so much attention from all of these new first time sparkys. where have all of you been hiding?

            if you want to help out, then help out or get out. the people here have quite a track record of helping out others. we seem to do a very good job of self policeing the forums.

            rick.

            here to stay!
            Last edited by PLUMBER RICK; 02-26-2006, 03:03 AM.
            phoebe it is

            Comment


            • #7
              hay rick

              is there a forum for greenlee ?

              could not find one t wanted to see what the MASTERS bragging about
              Charlie

              My seek the peek fundraiser page
              http://observatory.mountwashington.o...nal&fr_id=1040


              http://www.mountwashington.org/weather/conditions.php

              new work pictures 12/09
              http://public.fotki.com/hvachawk/

              Comment


              • #8
                hvac, i just threw that out there since greenlee is to electrical as ridgid is to plumbing. i'm sure there are plenty of electrical forums, but i'm not interested in their clique.

                we can get plenty of good input here on this site. we just need to weed out the new chicken littles. (the sky is falling)

                rick
                phoebe it is

                Comment


                • #9
                  Look, I don't care if you are "here to stay" or not. I just think that should one of you give out improper or unclear DIY advice, then you are liable for what happens. Would it be prosecutable? I don't know. Could you live with yourself if even one of you "experts" gave sound advice, and somebody was hurt. I don't see how.

                  So, suit yourself.

                  Doesn't speak to well for Ridgid though.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK
                    minuteman, wait a second before you think that plumbing is not dangerous.

                    so as to not have to repeat or rewrite my prior post, please read the
                    "md master" thread #12 and #16.

                    maybe someday you might learn that there is more to plumbing than chasing turds.
                    Yeah Rick, I just read "md master" thread #12 and #16. It's funny how you say that there is GFCI's and AFCI's for us, but no gizmo's for turd chasers. And then Bob D talks all about cross-connection protection and no back-siphon protection.

                    For years in Oklahoma, Electricians are required to take a 6 hours of continuing education units every 3 years, following each new NEC cycle, in order to renew our licenses. HVAC also has the same CEU requirement. (I know, because I also hold a current HVAC journeyman's licence.) There are no CEU's for Plumbers.

                    As far as the insurance rates. My agent told me that the higher premiums that you complained about, is based upon the use of open flame in your trade. One of the largest structure fires in Oklahoma was started by a plumber burning a hole in a roof for a vent pipe on a large warehouse. (This building is over a mile long.)

                    But you prove my point. Plumbing is also dangerous and should not be done by amateurs or DIYers.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      i guess changing a light bulb is too dangerous to give advice on.

                      i answer clients calls everyday and walk them through the basic stuff. even re-lighting a water heater.

                      so if you can't anwser a simple question on changing a light bulb, what good are you here on these forums

                      if all you do is watch over and critique us, i'm too old for a baby sitter. although i could use a helper like you to clean up the turds that i have to clear from the stopped up toilets that i have to go fix since it's too dangerous to give advice on how to use a plunger without worrying about a non professional misinterpreting and splashing themselves.

                      lets see how much longer all of you non helping new electricians will continue disrupting a forum that has worked fine before you came into it.

                      the electrical forum was something that was requested by members to ask questions and learn from. all we hear from you new guys is shutting it down and safety concerns about a mole. surprised you haven't called PETA.

                      rick.

                      this applies to new electricians, not the main core of electricians that have been here and contribute on a regular basis.
                      phoebe it is

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        [quote=Minuteman]

                        For years in Oklahoma, Electricians are required to take a 6 hours of continuing education units every 3 years, following each new NEC cycle, in order to renew our licenses. HVAC also has the same CEU requirement. (I know, because I also hold a current HVAC journeyman's licence.) There are no CEU's for Plumbers.

                        As far as the insurance rates. My agent told me that the higher premiums that you complained about, is based upon the use of open flame in your trade. One of the largest structure fires in Oklahoma was started by a plumber burning a hole in a roof for a vent pipe on a large warehouse. (This building is over a mile long.)

                        lets see. 6 hours of continuing education every three years. that boils down to 2 hours a year. going to traffic school to contest a ticket has more hours than what is required to keep your license.
                        there are some in the trade for life and there are some here today and gone tomorrow. why not read up on some of our plumbing threads and see if we are the ones here to stay or gone tomorrow. i'll let you decide. why not start off on 1 that i wrote titled underqualified plumbers, contractors and inspectors. that one had alot of input from both sides.

                        well if you have a contractors license in both electrical and hvac, then you would know that the #1 day to day loss with the insurance co's is not fire, it's water damage. i was told by my agent " if you want to lower your rates, become an electrician". i have yet to have a claim.

                        as far as the safety goes. circut breakers protect most every electrical installation. there is only a seismic gas shut off valve that automatically protects our gas systems. and these are not required in most cities here in california. there is no proven automatic water shut off. water and sewage damage is the #1 costly expense for an insurance co. in fact most companies have limited their losses by putting a cap on water and mold damage.


                        rick
                        phoebe it is

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK
                          #1 day to day loss with the insurance co's is not fire, it's water damage.

                          Rick,

                          You missed quoted me. What I said was that I am a Electrical Contractor and have a Journeyman Mechanical licence (HVAC). But I believe you about the #1 claim. I once had a minor part of a remodel on a Doctors Office, because the owner's husband of the beauty shop next door did a DIY plumbing repair over the weekend. Several inches of water in the Doctors office on Monday morning.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Maybe if the hubby at the beauty shop next door had asked a couple of questions on this forum he would not have had the issues they ended up with???

                            I don't disagree that some things are better left to the pro's, but I do disagree with lumping every DIY person into a single group of misfits when often people are asking questions on this (and other forums) so they can avoid making mistakes of such nature.

                            WWS
                            Still enjoying all 10 fingers!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              One of the "shames" in today's world is that there are too many people who use the "liability" issue as an excuse to never help. "I don't want to be liable" is getting a bit lame, IMHO! Personally, offering an opinion or suggestion, based on sound information or experience, is NOT a liability in my opinion. Sure, that might be tested in court. But from the same perspective, maybe I shouldn't help that little old lady changer her flat... because if she get's in an accident further down the road, it can be proved that it never would have happened if I hadn't helped her on her journey.

                              But, Rigid's Disclaimer does offer some protection for itself and afterall, providing a "forum" does not necessarily mean that it endorses any or all posts. If you want to protect yourself, don't advise or perhaps just state where you are coming from, which is exactly what most of us do.

                              I've spent a lifetime, writing instruction manuals and illustrating installation, maintenance, and repair manuals for a variety of companies. Liability is always a concern, and rightfully so; but more important, is that in every effort, I owe the prospective owner every bit as much as I owe my employer. It is essential that people be given helpful information, because if they do not receive it, they will go exploring on their own... and in that light, serious accidents can and will occur! To a large degree, NOT providing information can also be a liability.

                              Regarding the so-called "Mole" incident, I think too much alarm is being made of it. With Plumber's "This is going to sound a bit nuts" post, the immediately response was that it was dangerous and that Plumber shouldn't do this. So, the bottom line is that Plumber had a concern and he rightfully asked the question and was immediately advised of the error of his ways. Now wasn't that better than everybody just shutting up because they were afraid they might get sued? Hey, we all like Plumber, and we surely wouldn't like to see him or anyone else get hurt.

                              I think having a forum where experienced advice can be received is important to all of us. You can raise all the eyebrows you want, but I'm glad it is here.

                              CWS

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