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  • #16
    My understanding was that service disconnects opened ALL conductors (except ground) to a piece of equipment, is that not correct?
    It's legal, but not required. I'll put it this way: If it were required, then you'd see twice as many spaces used up in your panel. All the different circuit's neutrals would be required too.

    Disconnects are required to disconnect all "ungrounded" conductors to an appliance. "Ungrounded" is what we commonly call "hot". Neutrals are grounded, so they are not included in that rule.
    Yes, it is tied to the disconnect box and then runs out to the pump. The bare ground wire is landed under a grounding screw in the disconnect box then continues on to tie to the neutral (coming off the load side of the switch) and the ground wire running out to the pump.

    So this would seem to effectively tie the ground and the neutral together at a point other than the main, which is not the way it should be. Am I understanding this correctly or am I confused?
    You are understanding this correctly. Let's make sure I am:
    • The ground wire from the romex from the panel is connected to the box.
    • They did this by wrapping it around a screw in the back of the box, unbroken, and then left a tail after the screw.
    • This tail is wirenutted to the neutral from the switch.
    • The ground from the pump is in the same wirenut as the other ground and that neutral.
    • The neutral from the romex is landed on the line side of the switch.

    Since the neutral is not needed for this application, what should be done with it?
    After testing as outlined in my last post (to be absolutely sure about what each conductor is doing) then remove the neutral jumpering from the load side of the switch to the grounds. The line side neutral is fine where it is. It just needs to be terminated, be it under a screw or in a wirenut.

    Generally, if a three-wire is pulled where only a two wire is needed, the installer will simply buy the required two-pole disconnect, and cut the neutral off 6" long, and put a wirenut on the end of it. All conductors entering a box are required to be at least 6" long, whether you use them or not. (And later on down the road, who knows, that neutral might come in handy. Better to have it than snip it off where it enters the box.)

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    • #17
      You are understanding this correctly. Let's make sure I am:
      • The ground wire from the romex from the panel is connected to the box.
      • They did this by wrapping it around a screw in the back of the box, unbroken, and then left a tail after the screw.
      • This tail is wirenutted to the neutral from the switch.
      • The ground from the pump is in the same wirenut as the other ground and that neutral.
      • The neutral from the romex is landed on the line side of the switch.
      Yes to all the above.

      And I understand the logic of leaving the unused neutral wire for possible future applications.

      I have not performed your test as yet, maybe I will get some time tomorrow to look at it. Since it doesn't present any immediate hazard (at least you did not mention any that need correction ASAP), I think it can wait a bit.
      "It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?" Bob D. 2006

      https://www.youtube.com/user/PowerToolInstitute

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      • #18
        this is way way to in depth for me and i admit it but i am learning alittle, but just to make sur is the ground and the neutral like this,the ground is tied to the back of the box with a screw then the tail of the ground goes to the neutral as just one wire?is that safe?i an no electrition and have never claimed to be but to me it just sounds odd but then again when my mecanic told me that my truck needed a fuel injector 7 years ago i just swaped intakes and put a 4 bbl carb on it just so i could understand what i was looking at when i opened the hood vs seeing a bout load of wires just me i guess,but it still dont sound right
        9/11/01, never forget.

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        • #19
          Bob, I wouldn't say it's "safe" but I don't see an immediate life-threatening issue. I'd put it to the top of your to-do list.

          Originally posted by oldslowchevy
          the ground is tied to the back of the box with a screw then the tail of the ground goes ...to the next point... as just one wire? Is that safe?
          I played with your words a bit, for clarity. The fact they're connected to neutrals isn't safe, we've established that. If I'm reading you right, your point is as I've worded it above. My apologies in advance for putting words in your mouth.

          Yes, it's safe, and a common practice. The only sticking point is, the wire needs to be 6" long before that screw. If that wire were to break, and the installer only had an inch between the entrance to the box, and that screw, the next guy would be cursing. Many of us sparkies don't realize that the 6" rule applies that way, but it's true.

          A bonus to that method is it's quicker, and the fewer connections you have in a system, the fewer fail points; less resistance gained from connections, fewer connections to go bad.

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          • #20
            it is still above my head and on this i think i would have to get a sparky to do that one
            9/11/01, never forget.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by ToUtahNow
              A wire nut is sometimes called a marret. I believe it's a Canadian thing
              You got it. Here is the history of the Canadian invention - Marrette

              At the turn of the twentieth century, a young Scotsman
              named Bill P. Marr immigrated to Ontario, Canada. After
              settling in the Toronto area, Marr was soon employed by the
              T. Eaton Company as a contractor for Ontario Hydro, where
              he worked as an electrician converting gas lit homes to
              electrical incandescent lighting.
              As part of this conversion, the accepted practice back then
              was a process called " solder and tape" Typically, a mechanic
              would first run the wires required, then an electrician would
              polish the exposed conductors and twist them together. Next,
              the ends of the wires would be firmly joined by dipping them in
              a pot of molten solder, and after they cooled, the wires would
              then be wrapped with an insulating tape.
              Over time, this process proved to be both time consuming and
              dangerous, as Bill Marr discovered first-hand when he
              inadvertently spilled a scorching solder pot while working in a
              customer’ home. Convinced that there had to be a safer and
              more efficient way of joining two electrical conductors, Marr
              worked tirelessly in his basement shop until he finally invented
              the first pressure type wire connector (a set screw version which
              was the forerunner to the modern day wire connector).
              Since that day in 1914, the Marr® company has become a
              leading manufacturer of twist-on wire connectors in North
              America. The Marrette® brand has so revolutionized the way
              branch circuits were connected that the term "marrette" has
              become synonymous with " wire connector" in the electrician’s
              vocabulary.
              And since being acquired by T&B in 1997, this highly respected
              Marrette® brand name has become an integral part of the vast
              Thomas & Betts product offering to the construction market.

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              • #22
                code violations or improper wiring

                When remodelling a kitchen, I incorpoprated a small, unheated enclosed porch(3'x5') into the existing kitchen. When opening up the porch walls to insulate, i came across a buried "junction box". This "box" was a ring with four set screws @ 12, 3,6 & 9 o'clock which were used to hold armored cable within close proximity to each other so the wire encased in the cable could be twisted and taped with insulated tape. Now, every electrician I ever spoke to admonished against burying boxes ( and I will assume burying any connection). But this connection sat, undisturbed in a wall, from when the house was rewired from knob and tube (yes, there are a few insulators in the house from those days) to armored cable with absolutely no ill affects. And, judging from how this buried connection was made up, and looking at the other wiring in the house, it appears to be the work of the electrician who rewired the house with armored cable.
                there's a solution to every problem.....you just have to be willing to find it.

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                • #23
                  WBrooks,

                  Thanks for the history behind the name.

                  Mark
                  "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                  I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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                  • #24
                    Bob D

                    If the well casing is steel, you must also bond the casing to the EGC.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by FINER9998
                      Now, every electrician I ever spoke to admonished against burying boxes ( and I will assume burying any connection).
                      Rightfully so: it's against code, it makes it more difficult to find in the event of a problem with the connections, it makes it impossible to detect a fire started inside the box until it has caused considerable damage.

                      It an unexcusable practice. Professional electricians need to set their bar higher than that.
                      But this connection sat, undisturbed in a wall, from when the house was rewired from knob and tube (yes, there are a few insulators in the house from those days) to armored cable with absolutely no ill affects.
                      A wiser man than I addressed this way of thinking very effectively:
                      I like to use the following analogy, whenever someone tells me, “It’s never been a problem before.” Suppose that just before you back your car out of the driveway each morning, you put on blinders and earmuffs. Suppose that you wait for a random amount of time, and then just back into the street. When you get into the street, you can take off the blinders and the earmuffs, and drive to work.

                      Question: If you do this ten days in a row, and if you don’t hit anything during those ten days, would you conclude that this is a safe driving habit? Or would it take 20 consecutive days without incident, to convince you it was safe? 30? How many? Everyone is welcome to steal this analogy shamelessly. But give me authorship credit, if you wish to use the following aphorism:
                      "An accident waiting for a place to happen will, given time, find that place.” - Charlie Beck

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                      • #26
                        About 8 years ago I had my old furnace replaced and added central air at the same time.Last september I started to notice lights flickering when the air would kick on. I checked all the light circuits to make sure everything was tight and making good connection. I then checked the furnace and air unti and didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. I removed the cover from my panel again to recheck everything and this time I noticed that the romex for the central unit did not have a ground wire at all just 2 conductors connected to the breaker. I went outside to the central unit and rechecked the wiring there,(run under the copper return tube). Found that the installers had just clamped the ground wire from the Compressor to the return tube. Went into the basement and found the same connection from the furnace to the return tube but taped instead of clamped. I took pictures of this mess and delivered them to the HVAC company that did the install. They said that the "electrician" that did that was no longer emplyeed by them and they sent someone out to correct this mess. At first he only pulled a ground wire from the furnace out to the central unit and connected them together. he was packed and ready to walk out the door when I stopped him and showed him the panel. He didn't like it, but replaced that cable also. I have not had a problem with lights flickering since this repair was made.
                        info for all: http://www.hoistman.com http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/index....wwtoolinfoforu --- "I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me."

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by NDMaster
                          Bob D

                          If the well casing is steel, you must also bond the casing to the EGC.
                          No, its a 4" Sch 40 PVC casing.
                          "It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?" Bob D. 2006

                          https://www.youtube.com/user/PowerToolInstitute

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                          • #28
                            Just pulled this out of a house the other day.
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                            How does a person or thing manage to do this???!!!

                            In this same house we had to spend 3 hours to find out that the framer had screwed up half the house. He had decided to add some lights for the owner or maybe he was the owner but he stole the neutral from a few circuits and made them switch legs. And he already had the sheet rock up so we couldn't see where the problem was. My boss and one journeyman stayed and fixed it after we were sent to finish another job.
                            Last edited by Polar Sparky 1224; 05-25-2006, 10:00 PM.
                            "Diplomacy is saying nice dodging until you can find a rock." Will Rogers
                            "If a Monkey can do your job, are you in the right profession?

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                            • #29
                              Found this in an office building in Bountiful....
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                              Can you see at least 2 things wrong with this?


                              The mud ring is put in back wards when if you are going to do outlets like this you can get a metal cover for it or the kind that you can attach the yoke to the box. And it was exposed and needed to be ran in conduit but wasn't. When i removed this it was just handing from the wall with some thin wire. The people that had wired up these outlets had reversed the hot and neutral enough we had to open every box and correct all their mistakes.
                              "Diplomacy is saying nice dodging until you can find a rock." Will Rogers
                              "If a Monkey can do your job, are you in the right profession?

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Polar Sparky 1224
                                I want to see what kind of trouble people have run into when doing remodel work. And nicely discuss the solutions.

                                At my in laws home someone had connected the neutrals wrong on a gfci. I went testing their small appliance circuits and found the gfci didn't trip. After finding the hot wire coming in from the panel It was a quick fix. I haven't seen any other problems since but I'm still having fun relabeling their panel. The people that redid the wiring didn't take the time to label anything.

                                PS,
                                I hope you are having fun re-labeling them!

                                I wish people would take pride in their work and do things right! (Like labeling the panel, preferably with a label printer) I'll try to have a good thought for you while you're having this much fun! Enjoy!
                                Phil
                                Tools Rule

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