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  • Simple Wirring question

    Ok heres the deal. I am finishing remodeling my kitchen. We are putting in the microwave, disposal, dishwasher, and fridge.

    I have run 2 12-3 (4 circuits) homeruns back to the breaker box I now have the 2 12-3 ends and I am trying to decide how to split them off to my 4 appliances. Porbably the wrong way would be to run them into a 6" box then run the 4 leads off to my appliances from there? Is it better to run each 12-3 into its own box then split? Or is there some other better way to tackle this whole thing.




    Just trying to be proper. Thanks,

    Josh

  • #2
    While not a response to Josh's question, I also have a beginner question. Please answer his first, I don't want to hijack his thread.

    How many #14 wires can you safely fit in a wire nut sized to accomodate 4 #12's. I opened a 3 gang box to replace a dimmer switch in my home and dicovered quite a gaggle of wiring in there, 4 romex, 2 of which were 3 conductors for a 3-way switch that also feeds some non switched outlets. Evidently the builder tied everything off one hot feed since one breaker killed the whole box.
    Only a surfer knows the feeling. Billabong ca. 1985 or so

    Comment


    • #3
      Simple wiring done.

      Here's how you handle it. Run one of the 12-3 from the breaker box to one of the appliances boxes, call it Appl#1. Run the other 12-3 from the breaker box to another appliance (appl#2). Then run a piece of 12-2 to appliance #3 from Appl#1. From Appl#2 run 12-2 to Appl #4.
      Tie the blacks together: 12-3 and the black from the 12-2s at Appl#1 and Appl#2. Appl#1 and Appl#2 circuits will use the RED wires. Circuits Appl#3 and Appl#4 will use the Black wires. Connect all WHITES together at Appl#1 and Appl#2, but dont forget a pigtail for the outlets. Do the same for the GROUNDs. In this why all connections are accessable in the future, and in-code and not crowded.


      Now on to wire nuts, when you buy them, on the box or bag, there is a list of the combinations of gauge sizes that will fix in the nut(cap). Follow this recommendation ONLY. Its a good idea to pre-twist (with pliers) the wires together (especially 12 gauge, since the #12 are stiffer, which may lead to insuffient contact between wires), before twisting on the cap (wire nut).

      Comment


      • #4
        Kinda stepped into this one. I didn't install the wiring, but discovered what appears to be 6 #14's twisted in the wire nut. I gave each one a reasonable tug to make sure they were seated in the nut good before stuffing everthing back in the box. I was thinking of pigtailing 3 each in a nut and using a jumper which would give each nut 4 wires, which was the largest number of any size listed in my B&D Home wiring book. Which is worse, a jumper and another nut, or 6 wires stuffed in one? By the way, when I finally got the wire out of the stab in on the back of a single pole it was painted white, no not the insulation, the conductor. If that gives you any indication of what else I might uncover. I scotchpadded the conductor and used the screws to reaffix. I am considering re-terminating every outlet, switch and fixture in the house based on what I found in this box.
        Only a surfer knows the feeling. Billabong ca. 1985 or so

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by gary1
          Here's how you handle it. Run one of the 12-3 from the breaker box to one of the appliances boxes, call it Appl#1. Run the other 12-3 from the breaker box to another appliance (appl#2). Then run a piece of 12-2 to appliance #3 from Appl#1. From Appl#2 run 12-2 to Appl #4.
          Tie the blacks together: 12-3 and the black from the 12-2s at Appl#1 and Appl#2. Appl#1 and Appl#2 circuits will use the RED wires. Circuits Appl#3 and Appl#4 will use the Black wires. Connect all WHITES together at Appl#1 and Appl#2, but dont forget a pigtail for the outlets. Do the same for the GROUNDs. In this why all connections are accessable in the future, and in-code and not crowded.
          So what i understand is that you take the 1rst 12/3 and run to the fridge, where you use the black and pigtail the white and ground. the red is spliced six inches from the back of the box and pushed to the back. From that box you splice the reds together and use a tan wire nut to cap the black coming from the microwave outlet. If you have some longer scraps of 12/2 you just splice the red in the fridge outlet the the black going to the microwave outlet.

          For your next run if your disposal and and dishwasher are close together then you can take a duplex receptacle and have part of it switched for the disposal and the other left hot for the dishwasher. If you already have it switched then just snap of the gold tab between the terminals on your outlet. Then if you aren't bothered buy having the cord from your dishwasher come into the side of your cabinet you can plug it into the unswitched side.

          I wish i new how you kitchen was laid out though......
          "Diplomacy is saying nice dodging until you can find a rock." Will Rogers
          "If a Monkey can do your job, are you in the right profession?

          Comment


          • #6
            Sorry i forgot... If you want to have a junction box you can have it set behind where a cabinet will be, or in some area where it won't be to visible, yet you can still get to it. You may be able use a 3 or 4 gange plastic box with a black cover plate. box sizing is bases on the cubic inches a wire and device use. each conductor (hot and Neutral) will count as 1 per wire and all the grounds count as 1 for all of them. so in your case you have 4 12/3 which has 16 wires but since your grounds only count as one you need something that has at-least or more than 13 cubic inches. They have the boxes labeled in the back for size. You could use a 4x4x2 1/8" box which is a beep metal box and get a mud ring for two devices and put on a blank cover plate. you can use plastic romex connectors to hold you wire in.
            "Diplomacy is saying nice dodging until you can find a rock." Will Rogers
            "If a Monkey can do your job, are you in the right profession?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Roadrunner
              Kinda stepped into this one. I didn't install the wiring, but discovered what appears to be 6 #14's twisted in the wire nut. I gave each one a reasonable tug to make sure they were seated in the nut good before stuffing everthing back in the box. I was thinking of pigtailing 3 each in a nut and using a jumper which would give each nut 4 wires, which was the largest number of any size listed in my B&D Home wiring book. Which is worse, a jumper and another nut, or 6 wires stuffed in one? By the way, when I finally got the wire out of the stab in on the back of a single pole it was painted white, no not the insulation, the conductor. If that gives you any indication of what else I might uncover. I scotchpadded the conductor and used the screws to reaffix. I am considering re-terminating every outlet, switch and fixture in the house based on what I found in this box.
              There are several sizes of Marrette that will handle 6-#14 wires
              http://www.tnb-canada.com/en/catalog..._marrcat_e.pdf

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Polar Sparky 1224
                Sorry i forgot... If you want to have a junction box you can have it set behind where a cabinet will be, or in some area where it won't be to visible, yet you can still get to it. You may be able use a 3 or 4 gange plastic box with a black cover plate. box sizing is bases on the cubic inches a wire and device use. each conductor (hot and Neutral) will count as 1 per wire and all the grounds count as 1 for all of them. so in your case you have 4 12/3 which has 16 wires but since your grounds only count as one you need something that has at-least or more than 13 cubic inches. They have the boxes labeled in the back for size. You could use a 4x4x2 1/8" box which is a beep metal box and get a mud ring for two devices and put on a blank cover plate. you can use plastic romex connectors to hold you wire in.
                Forgot to add that you take that 13 and multiply it by 2.25 since 1 12 awg wire counts as 2.25 cuibic inches and so you box needs to be atleast 29.25 or larger. If you are still doing a large junction box for all your new hr's.
                "Diplomacy is saying nice dodging until you can find a rock." Will Rogers
                "If a Monkey can do your job, are you in the right profession?

                Comment


                • #9
                  I would avoid putting all the home runs in one junction box. Keeping them all straight would be a chore, and box fill would be a problem too.

                  As Gary said, pull one 12-3 to the disposal, and catch the dishwasher on the red.

                  Pull the other to the microwave, and catch the fridge on the red.


                  KISS.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    From what I am reading, it's OK to share the neutral on two 110 volt runs in the same 10-3? What about the return path, wouldn't two 15 amp loads on each leg of the three conductor overload the neutral return?
                    Only a surfer knows the feeling. Billabong ca. 1985 or so

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      From what I am reading, it's OK to share the neutral on two 110 volt runs in the same 12-3? What about the return path, wouldn't two 15 amp loads on each leg of the three conductor overload the neutral return?
                      Only a surfer knows the feeling. Billabong ca. 1985 or so

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Roadrunner
                        From what I am reading, it's OK to share the neutral on two 110 volt runs in the same 12-3? What about the return path, wouldn't two 15 amp loads on each leg of the three conductor overload the neutral return?
                        Your neutral carries the imbalance or returning current. 12 AWG THHN is meant for 20 amps but is rated at 30, so the neutral will be fine carrying what is left over from the 2 circuits.
                        "Diplomacy is saying nice dodging until you can find a rock." Will Rogers
                        "If a Monkey can do your job, are you in the right profession?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Your neutral carries the imbalance or returning current. 12 AWG THHN is meant for 20 amps but is rated at 30, so the neutral will be fine carrying what is left over from the 2 circuits.

                          woah just back track a sec here ,,

                          if both red and black wires on the same phase yes the netural wire will go much higher but if black and red on diffrent " phase " if the load is equal the netrual wire load will be far less it can go down to zero amps

                          please recheck how you will plan to run this wiring set up i have see multi circuit hook up wrong and burnt the netural wire pretty bad espcally both hot legs are on same phase

                          [ very simuir to the 3 phase wye system as well if want to know in commerca/ industral sisuation ]

                          Merci, Marc

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Polar Sparky 1224
                            Your neutral carries the imbalance or returning current.
                            Correct. So if A is pulling 14 amps, and B is pulling 10 amps, then the neutral will be loaded to 4 amps.

                            As Marc pointed out, this is only true for a multiwire branch circuit, where the two 'hot' conductors get their supply from opposite phases. If you test between the two hot conductors, you should see 240V on the meter for a 120/240V system.

                            12 AWG THHN is meant for 20 amps but is rated at 30, so the neutral will be fine carrying what is left over from the 2 circuits.
                            You're sticking your big toe in a dangerous stream - I'm unsure if you said what you meant to say here, but what you're saying is a little unsettling.

                            The two conductors cannot be on the same phase, or you will be connecting a #12 neutral to up to 40 A of current, and 240.4(D) says conductors (for most purposes) shall be protected at 20A.

                            One other thing to be clear on - aside from the small conductor rule, NM cable is only allowed to consider the 90° column for derating. Otherwise, the 60° column applies. So when sizing for A/C's, we're still limited by the 60° column.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Sparks, the typical house is a single phase system. The correct description is "opposite legs". 110V is derived from splitting the sine wave from 220V in half. The ground/common is the center of the sine wave (that's how the transformer works). 220V is the potential from the two edges of the sine wave. 110V splits that potential in half.

                              So, the two hots in the 12/3wg should be on opposite legs, not phases. To do this he should wire to adjacent circuit breakers. If using twins (or mini's or split's) do not install to both lugs in a single twin breaker. This would put both wires on the same leg.

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