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  • #16
    Re: Hydronic Baseboard Heat

    Yup - you can control the temperature of the room very easily with forced air as you can with just about any other system. It's easy to manipulate even your most basic thermostat's.

    But you didn't answer my point concerning the ideal heating curve?

    Also - whether it is 20 years old or yesterday, doesn't mean it might not hold relevance to today. Do you have peer reviewed evidence to refute this study?

    How much of the heat that you put into the room in this ideal forced air heating system you are installing that is sitting near the ceiling and how much of it is keeping the occupants feet warm?

    The reason you can feel cold in a 70 degree room is because humans lose a good amount of their heat through radiation - one of the 3 ways heat is transferred that is the least understood (at least in North America). If there is a cold surface in a 70 degree room, our body will give up heat to that cold surface via radiation, especially cold floors, which in turn makes our lower body and especially feet cold. If we heat the objects in the room via radiant floors, we can make a 65 degree room radiant heated room feel about as warm as a 70 degree forced air room. More cost savings.

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    • #17
      Re: Hydronic Baseboard Heat

      No way to get around the inherent inefficeincy of heating water through a heat exchanger, pumping thorugh piping (with resultant losses) then transferring that heat again. Radiant heat is indeed comfortable heat, however the notion that you can set the room thermostat to 60 and be comfortable is just not true. I have installed several hundred radiant systems in the past ten years or so and though they perform well and customers like them a lot, they certainly do not cost less to operate and the installation cost is usually twice that of forced hot air. Hot air rises to the ceiling with baseboard and radiant also. Don't believe it? find a radiant system and check the temps at the ceiling and the floor. Radiant or not, heat rises.
      sigpic

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      • #18
        Re: Hydronic Baseboard Heat

        I'll put money down that if I set the thermostat to 65 F in a house with radiant floors, and I set the thermostat to 70 F in a forced air application, you woulld be more comfortable in the house with radiant floors by a long shot. That in it's own (i.e. quality of heat), PLUS the cost savings from putting the heat where it counts which will pay for themselves in due time as far as installation versus operating costs, make them a no brainer for someone looking to save $$$ in a new house installation application, and if someone is seriously gutting a house and considering re-doing everything, also a no brainer.

        I don't really see your argument about "heat exchangers," holding much water in all honesty, no pun intended. In a primary/secondary boiler system, the boiler heats the water, the water is pumped to a manifold, where it is distributed to the floor. The floor uses the slab (typically) or if it's staple up, the heat plates to heat up the floor. The floor radiates the heat onto surrounding objects in the lower portions of the room, which in turn radiate heat onto you. It's the concept of radiation, which is the primary way your body loses and picks up heat, which eludes forced air proponents such as yourself.


        Installation costs of a radiant system can be cut down severely as well. Seeing as how most people typically have very few thermostats in a forced air system since there is a lot of complexity involved in trying to do forced air ducting (lots of ducts taking up your heat room and/or compromising your structure), you can do a radiant system for much cheaper than you think. And the proof's in the pudding too. In the area I live I talked to a plumbing inspector and he said 10-15 years ago most new houses he went to were installing forced air. Now he said it's about 60 percent radiant floor heating and 30 percent forced air, the 10 percent being "other" methods.

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        • #19
          Re: Hydronic Baseboard Heat

          I said before, I have installed hundreds of radiant systems over the years, from staple ups to in floor to in ceiling and wall. No matter what you do it's going to cost way more than forced hot air.
          There is not one single piece of data that would support radiant heat being less expensive to operate than forced hot air. You need to factor in the electrical cost of running pumps pretty much constantly. You also need to understand that the single most efficient way to heat an envelope would be to fire the burner directly into the space, thereby getting 100% of the heat from the source. Hydronic heat takes 2 exchanges of that fore to get it to the heated space, forced hot air only 1. Siggys modern hydronic heat book was written well before installers and engineers got serious about hot air design and installation and is based on 20 year and older data. I can understand your excitement over radiant but you have to remember, this is nothing new. They were putting copper pipe in slabs in the 40's. You should put your bias aside for a while and do some un-biased research on forced hot air before you make the assumptions that you have. That said, I have both radiant and forced hot air with a\c in my own house.
          sigpic

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          • #20
            Re: Hydronic Baseboard Heat

            Originally posted by Scott K View Post
            How much of the heat that you put into the room in this ideal forced air heating system you are installing that is sitting near the ceiling and how much of it is keeping the occupants feet warm?
            Stratification in a house with 8 or 9 foot ceilings is virtually non-existant. But I dont see much difference if the system is forced air or radiant. The radiant panels heat the air and heat rises. Moot point, IMO. But, in a house with taller ceilings you might have the option to place return grilles higher on the wall to help bleed off some warmer air, with forced air.

            Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
            That said, I have both radiant and forced hot air with a\c in my own house.
            Ditto that. The only thing I would trade my nail under hot water system in my ceramic tile kitchen floor for, is a direct burial hot water system.

            Andy

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            • #21
              Re: Hydronic Baseboard Heat

              Once again the concept of radiation eludes you.

              And if you're in denial about stratification well that speaks volumes....

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              • #22
                Re: Hydronic Baseboard Heat

                Yeah, thats it. Enlighten me about stratification.

                Andy

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                • #23
                  Re: Hydronic Baseboard Heat

                  Scotty, did you take a minute to read my bio? Believe me the concept does not elude me.
                  sigpic

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                  • #24
                    Re: Hydronic Baseboard Heat

                    Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                    No way to get around the inherent inefficeincy of heating water through a heat exchanger, pumping thorugh piping (with resultant losses) then transferring that heat again. Radiant heat is indeed comfortable heat, however the notion that you can set the room thermostat to 60 and be comfortable is just not true. I have installed several hundred radiant systems in the past ten years or so and though they perform well and customers like them a lot, they certainly do not cost less to operate and the installation cost is usually twice that of forced hot air. Hot air rises to the ceiling with baseboard and radiant also. Don't believe it? find a radiant system and check the temps at the ceiling and the floor. Radiant or not, heat rises.
                    Actually I must disagree. First off radiant heat does not heat air it heats objects. Baseboard and other emitters heat air by convection. Secondly hot air rises not heat. Heat doesn't know up from down. If you dont believe me, take a torch to a 3' piece of copper pipe hold it at the bottom of the pipe and heat the top part. Let me know which way the heat goes.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Hydronic Baseboard Heat

                      Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                      I said before, I have installed hundreds of radiant systems over the years, from staple ups to in floor to in ceiling and wall. No matter what you do it's going to cost way more than forced hot air.
                      There is not one single piece of data that would support radiant heat being less expensive to operate than forced hot air. You need to factor in the electrical cost of running pumps pretty much constantly. You also need to understand that the single most efficient way to heat an envelope would be to fire the burner directly into the space, thereby getting 100% of the heat from the source. Hydronic heat takes 2 exchanges of that fore to get it to the heated space, forced hot air only 1. Siggys modern hydronic heat book was written well before installers and engineers got serious about hot air design and installation and is based on 20 year and older data. I can understand your excitement over radiant but you have to remember, this is nothing new. They were putting copper pipe in slabs in the 40's. You should put your bias aside for a while and do some un-biased research on forced hot air before you make the assumptions that you have. That said, I have both radiant and forced hot air with a\c in my own house.
                      Factor in when the radiant source stays warm for days and doesnt kick the boiler on. When done right radiant is more efficient then a W.A.F.
                      How many times will a waf cycle during the course of a day, when my cast iron rads get hot and when my radiant floors get warm they hold for a real long time.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Hydronic Baseboard Heat

                        Originally posted by Ruudacguy View Post
                        Stratification in a house with 8 or 9 foot ceilings is virtually non-existant. But I dont see much difference if the system is forced air or radiant. The radiant panels heat the air and heat rises. Moot point, IMO. But, in a house with taller ceilings you might have the option to place return grilles higher on the wall to help bleed off some warmer air, with forced air.



                        Ditto that. The only thing I would trade my nail under hot water system in my ceramic tile kitchen floor for, is a direct burial hot water system.

                        Andy
                        Radiant panels heat air, radiant in floor, walls or ceilings does not. There is no heating of air with an in floor radiant system.
                        Last edited by Masterplumb; 09-22-2008, 08:10 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Hydronic Baseboard Heat

                          How many air change per hour? When you're changing the air that many times a day, all the air you suck out has to be replaced with warm air. What scott says is all true regarding the princples of radiant heat. Don't know how cold it gets in NH, but we have 125 days a year below freezing here, believe me we've done the research. Regarding installation and maintenance costs NH, that's all true, but a price to pay for true comfort, efficiency and longevity. I've never worked on a furnace over 25 years, but half of the boilers we maintain date back to at least the mid 70's.

                          RuudAc guy, I don't blame you for defending your trade, I have this same argument with the Hvac'rs I employ on a regular basis
                          West Trail Mechanical Ltd
                          Service. Commitment. Expertise.

                          www.westtrailmechanical.ca

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                          • #28
                            Re: Hydronic Baseboard Heat

                            I am not slamming radiant heat by any means. I have it in my house. I like it. It's comfortable. It's a bit less expensive to operate than the old baseboard system I used to have. But then a lot of that probably has to do with the Buderus boiler and Tekmar modulating controls. It does cost more on my electric bill. Have to run the primary circulator constantly. The problem I have though is that even if you could realize a 20% savings over FHA, the cost of equipment and installation would take 20+ years to get back. By the way, though radiant does heat people and objects. If you take everything out of the room and crank up the radiant the room will still get hot. And though there supposidly is less stratification of air in the room, take your IR thermometer and check out the temps at the ceiling sometime. It's pretty warm up there.
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Hydronic Baseboard Heat

                              The temperature will be nearly identical on the floor as it will be at the ceiling, even if you have 20' ceilings, that is a fact. Check the temperature difference between the 2 with a waf and there is where you will see the big difference.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Hydronic Baseboard Heat

                                Three forms of heat transfer are being only vaguely addressed here.
                                Radiation
                                Convection
                                Conduction

                                Radiation is the reason your hand gets warm when you hold it 3 feet away from a campfire, despite the heated air that rises away with a majority of the heat.

                                Convection is the rising heated air.

                                Conduction is the warm ground at the base of that campfire.

                                Stratification is real, otherwise ceiling fans wouldn't be so common for dispersing heat from cathedral ceilings.

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