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  • "New" Refrigerant...

    Been told HVAC Refrigerant's are changing AGAIN for residential applications.

    Right? Wrong?

    What will be the benefits and/or problems? Will other refrigerants' price go even higher?

    Thanks.

    J.C.

  • #2
    Re: "New" Refrigerant...

    New equipment will have 410a rather than R-22. retrofit for R-22 is ...407a I believe.

    Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
    Been told HVAC Refrigerant's are changing AGAIN for residential applications.

    Right? Wrong?

    What will be the benefits and/or problems? Will other refrigerants' price go even higher?

    Thanks.

    J.C.
    No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: "New" Refrigerant...

      December 31,2009: R-22 equipment will no longer be made (old stocks will be usable)

      December 31,2012: R-22 refigerant will no longer be made/imported or sold in the US

      The prices on 410A and R-22 have been bouncing up and down all summer in the long run both will go up and R-22 will spike though not as bad as R-12 did.

      410A is a tuffer gas to work due to higher pressures and liquid charging.

      The forced 410A system upgrade is going to pi$$ off alot of folks this summer

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: "New" Refrigerant...

        I'm told 410-A is less forgiving when it comes to contaminants in the line "brazing scale" so the number of short lived systems should be wholly unpleasant.
        No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: "New" Refrigerant...

          Originally posted by MoJourneyman View Post
          I'm told 410-A is less forgiving when it comes to contaminants in the line "brazing scale" so the number of short lived systems should be wholly unpleasant.
          Use a nitrogen purge while brazing and filter driers in the system everything should be okay. Long gone are the days the quick and easy change outs.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: "New" Refrigerant...

            Thats something I've been taught to do anytime i'm brazing for refrigerants or gas. But i'm thinking in the beginning a lot of contractors will still try to do a quick change out and skip that step.

            Originally posted by James P View Post
            Use a nitrogen purge while brazing and filter driers in the system everything should be okay. Long gone are the days the quick and easy change outs.
            No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: "New" Refrigerant...

              Originally posted by MoJourneyman View Post
              Thats something I've been taught to do anytime i'm brazing for refrigerants or gas. But i'm thinking in the beginning a lot of contractors will still try to do a quick change out and skip that step.
              I always used a nitrogen purge when brazing gas lines in clean rooms.The clean room techs would kill if copper oxide messed up their equipment. Never used it much for CFC or HCFC refrigerants lines,though all the text books I've read recommended it.
              I always install a liquid line drier and dehydrate the system, which is a lot more than most contractors do on an R-22 system.
              With 410A I've had to shake a few of my old bad habits.

              James

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: "New" Refrigerant...

                I never do a low nitrogen purge when brazing. I do purge nitrogen both ways when I am done brazing and I leak check with somewhere between 2-400 lbs. Depends on how full the bottle is I am using.

                The only difference during installation is that 410A uses POE which has a very high affinity for water. It is extremely important to make sure all the moisture is removed. Its also important to get the oil drained from any existing linesets. I used a $100 can of RX11 on one suction line this summer.

                410A isnt exactly new either. I worked on a 410a unit this summer that was installed in 1999.

                Andy

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: "New" Refrigerant...

                  Originally posted by Ruudacguy View Post
                  I never do a low nitrogen purge when brazing. I do purge nitrogen both ways when I am done brazing and I leak check with somewhere between 2-400 lbs. Depends on how full the bottle is I am using.

                  The only difference during installation is that 410A uses POE which has a very high affinity for water. It is extremely important to make sure all the moisture is removed. Its also important to get the oil drained from any existing linesets. I used a $100 can of RX11 on one suction line this summer.

                  410A isnt exactly new either. I worked on a 410a unit this summer that was installed in 1999.

                  Andy
                  Andy, you really should be leaking N into the system as you are brazing and if you are pulling a proper vacuum on your systems there is no need for a positive pressure test, on top of that most low sides if they are older are only rated for 150PSI (newer evaporators are rated to 300PSI) so a 400 psi pressure test is really not a good idea all the way around.

                  Carrier invented the first 410A residential system in 1996

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: "New" Refrigerant...

                    300 psi is a normal operating pressure on the high side of a 410A system. Ive seen 22 systems with plugged condenser coils that were running 400lbs of head pressure. I leak check with nitrogen because its 10 times quicker than leak checking by vacuum. It works for me 50-60 times a year and I have never had 1 problem arise by using my methods.

                    As for a low nitrogen purge: In my experience, you still get scale. A scale that when rubbed between your fingers completely disappears into nothing. I dont think the 1 tenth of 1 percent of 1 ounce of scale produced is going to affect the operation or longevity of any system which has 5 or 6 pounds of refrigerant and 26 ounces of oil in the bottom of the compressor.

                    Andy

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: "New" Refrigerant...

                      Originally posted by Ruudacguy View Post
                      300 psi is a normal operating pressure on the high side of a 410A system. Ive seen 22 systems with plugged condenser coils that were running 400lbs of head pressure. I leak check with nitrogen because its 10 times quicker than leak checking by vacuum. It works for me 50-60 times a year and I have never had 1 problem arise by using my methods.

                      As for a low nitrogen purge: In my experience, you still get scale. A scale that when rubbed between your fingers completely disappears into nothing. I dont think the 1 tenth of 1 percent of 1 ounce of scale produced is going to affect the operation or longevity of any system which has 5 or 6 pounds of refrigerant and 26 ounces of oil in the bottom of the compressor.



                      Andy
                      Sorry Andy I guess I'm a bit mixed up... So it is quicker to pull a proper Vacuum then brake the Vac with N and do a positive pressure check as opposed to just pulling a proper vacuum (sounds like you need a good micron gauge)?

                      I'm gonna go ahead and trust the 100's of years of combined experience that taught me and every trade book I have ever read and keep using N when I braze

                      To each their own...

                      Bill

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: "New" Refrigerant...

                        After Brazing the connections, I hook my nitrogen hose to the suction line service port and backflush the lines and evap. I then install the schrader in the liquid line service port and attach my hose to that port. When nitrogen is flowing I install the schrader in the suction side and crank the pressure up to 3-400 psi, or whatever my tank will give me. Once Im satisfied that there are no leaks (usually less than a minute) I blow the nitrogen and start evacuating. When I first started doing this I did find that my vacuuming time was significantly reduced as opposed to using no nitrogen at all. I still use the Yellow Jacket 69022 analog micron gauge that I have grown accustomed to.

                        Thats good that you are 100% by the book Bill. My copy of Modern Refrigeration and Air Conditioning tells me to "Thoroughly wash with water and scrub the outside of the completed brazed joint". I assume you do this too. Man, how do you find the time?

                        Andy

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: "New" Refrigerant...

                          About micron vacuum gauges. Are the old Thermal vac-checks still available? I used one at my previous job and would like to find one.
                          Also like the old Thermal vacuum pumps, but haven't been able to locate one.

                          James

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: "New" Refrigerant...

                            Originally posted by James P View Post
                            About micron vacuum gauges. Are the old Thermal vac-checks still available? I used one at my previous job and would like to find one.
                            Also like the old Thermal vacuum pumps, but haven't been able to locate one.

                            James

                            Never have used the brand but here may be what you are looking for.

                            http://www.thermalengineeringcompany...id=23&cat_id=2

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: "New" Refrigerant...

                              Bill,

                              That's the one.

                              Thanks

                              James

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