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  • Primary secondary piping

    Most of the new Mod/Con boilers are calling for a primary/secondary piping arrangement in their literature using two pumps, one on the primary and one on the secondary. I was curious how many actually use this set up when installing the new Mod/Con's compared to the standard one pipe/one pump system. I've talking to other professionals who are installing them without using primary/secondary. Any thoughts on this?
    I was talking to a rep yesterday for a certain boiler company and he said they most likely wouldn't void the warranty if you didn't use the primary/secondary but they do specify using it... "most likely" seems a little dangerous to me.
    Last edited by ironranger; 05-12-2011, 10:08 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Primary secondary piping

    You have basically three choices. Primary/secondary which is tried and true and somewhat expensive and time consuming. You can go with injection which requires 3way zone valves or a hydronic separator and VFD pumps which is by far the easiest. Go to Caleffi's web site and download the Idronics series. They are free and will lead you through all the variations and logic. Remember that every job is different and will require different stratagies.
    sigpic

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    • #3
      Re: Primary secondary piping

      Just had some training the other day at my local wholesaler for Mod/Cons. This specific company requires that the mod/cons be piped using primary/secondary. He said it could void the warranty but "most likely" it wouldn't. I was just curious how many installers actually use this method.
      Ran into three just recently while working on something else and all three were not installed using the primary/secondary method. They were installed using a basic two or three zone loop system.
      I just don't see the having the extra expense of running a second pump if you don't have to.
      Thanks for the website I'll check it out.

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      • #4
        Re: Primary secondary piping

        here so pictures of a primary/secondary piping arrangement

        this one you can see the zone pumps and the main loop pump


        this one you can see the boiler pump injecting into the main loop
        Charlie

        My seek the peek fundraiser page
        http://observatory.mountwashington.o...nal&fr_id=1040


        http://www.mountwashington.org/weather/conditions.php

        new work pictures 12/09
        http://public.fotki.com/hvachawk/

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        • #5
          Re: Primary secondary piping

          here is another one

          Charlie

          My seek the peek fundraiser page
          http://observatory.mountwashington.o...nal&fr_id=1040


          http://www.mountwashington.org/weather/conditions.php

          new work pictures 12/09
          http://public.fotki.com/hvachawk/

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Primary secondary piping

            we've been primary-seconday with injection on the new systems we've put in recently.

            In our part of the world, returns can be very cold at the start of a call for heat, so it's nice to protect the boiler a little.

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            • #7
              Re: Primary secondary piping

              Curious, do you usually leave that much pipe exposed (not insulated)? There would seem to be a lot of radiation surface with those long manifolds and all the exposed branch piping. It will warm the room yes, so the heat is not 'lost' altogether, just doen't seem too efficient.

              Nice job on the layout and soldering looks good too, no runs, drips, or wipe smears.... just the way it should be.
              ---------------
              Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
              ---------------
              “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
              ---------
              "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
              ---------
              sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

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              • #8
                Re: Primary secondary piping

                Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
                Curious, do you usually leave that much pipe exposed (not insulated)? There would seem to be a lot of radiation surface with those long manifolds and all the exposed branch piping. It will warm the room yes, so the heat is not 'lost' altogether, just doen't seem too efficient.

                Nice job on the layout and soldering looks good too, no runs, drips, or wipe smears.... just the way it should be.
                I only insulated heating runs if it calls for it, but never the piping at the boiler, unless someone has the potential to rub up against it and burn themselves.

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                • #9
                  Re: Primary secondary piping

                  thanks for all the kind words about my work i like what i do and put my name on all my work

                  Flux has the same thought as i do with some one getting burned . in the last picture there is no heat in that room ot the room on the other side of the block so to help keeping the room dry and heated we dont do it
                  there is not all that much heat loss off the pipes .b
                  with the condensing boilers you cant shock the boilers so the looping system works good ,and also for large cast iron boilers also
                  Charlie

                  My seek the peek fundraiser page
                  http://observatory.mountwashington.o...nal&fr_id=1040


                  http://www.mountwashington.org/weather/conditions.php

                  new work pictures 12/09
                  http://public.fotki.com/hvachawk/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Primary secondary piping

                    Originally posted by HVAC HAWK View Post
                    thanks for all the kind words about my work i like what i do and put my name on all my work

                    Flux has the same thought as i do with some one getting burned . in the last picture there is no heat in that room ot the room on the other side of the block so to help keeping the room dry and heated we dont do it
                    there is not all that much heat loss off the pipes .b
                    with the condensing boilers you cant shock the boilers so the looping system works good ,and also for large cast iron boilers also
                    I was thinking the same thing Charlie. There isn't that much heat loss from pipes, and on a traditional boiler whether it's cast iron or steel matters more.
                    Last edited by Flux; 05-15-2011, 10:36 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Primary secondary piping

                      Hvac hawk,

                      Very nice piping layout and installation. You can tell when a plumber takes pride i what he does.

                      Jason

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                      • #12
                        Re: Primary secondary piping

                        Originally posted by Crowfoot View Post
                        Hvac hawk,

                        Very nice piping layout and installation. You can tell when a plumber takes pride i what he does.

                        Jason
                        Thanks
                        Charlie

                        My seek the peek fundraiser page
                        http://observatory.mountwashington.o...nal&fr_id=1040


                        http://www.mountwashington.org/weather/conditions.php

                        new work pictures 12/09
                        http://public.fotki.com/hvachawk/

                        Comment

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