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Which brand do you prefer for residential gas boilers?

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  • #16
    Re: Which brand do you prefer for residential gas boilers?

    Sorry for the short crappy response I'm just now getting off work... what I type doesn't make sense I'll try to write it out better when I have time tomorrow.
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    • #17
      Re: Which brand do you prefer for residential gas boilers?

      there is nothing wrong with theses i put a lot of them in and you dont have to heat up large cast iron boiler

      Bobcat High Performance Condensing Gas Boiler

      Peerless® PUREFIRE®

      Condensing Boilers | TriangleTube
      Charlie

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      • #18
        Re: Which brand do you prefer for residential gas boilers?

        Originally posted by Gettinit View Post
        Most older homes that utilize baseboard, radiators, or the like use at least 160 degrees fahrenheit water temperature. Now if it went to a hot water coil, you could probably just change the fan out to be able 2 extract as much be to use as possible.
        Condensing water heaters work best with return temps under 110 F and best below 85 F. These temps could be achieved with fan operated systems and radiant heat.
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        • #19
          Re: Which brand do you prefer for residential gas boilers?

          we have used them on all types of heat baseboard ,radiators , hot water coils and they all work good
          Charlie

          My seek the peek fundraiser page
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          http://www.mountwashington.org/weather/conditions.php

          new work pictures 12/09
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          • #20
            Re: Which brand do you prefer for residential gas boilers?

            Originally posted by HVAC HAWK View Post
            we have used them on all types of heat baseboard ,radiators , hot water coils and they all work good
            I am sure they work great. I am not saying anything is wrong with many of the condensing boilers. But you are not condensing. If you are not condensing you may as well have sold them a standard cast boiler. 85% AFUE is all you will get out of any boiler that doesn't condense, whether it be a condensing boiler or not.

            To be fair and honest I have not looked at the boilers that you have presented yet. If it has a secondary heat exchanger that let's it condense, then it will achieve the higher AFUE. I have yet to see a set up like this on a residential boiler.
            Last edited by Gettinit; 06-02-2012, 09:01 PM. Reason: add extra paragraph
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            • #21
              Re: Which brand do you prefer for residential gas boilers?

              Originally posted by HVAC HAWK View Post
              there is nothing wrong with theses i put a lot of them in and you dont have to heat up large cast iron boiler

              Bobcat High Performance Condensing Gas Boiler

              Peerless® PUREFIRE®

              Condensing Boilers | TriangleTube
              That might hold true with Commercial installs, but for Residential on wells and places with extremely hard water, these units are not ideal.

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              • #22
                Re: Which brand do you prefer for residential gas boilers?

                They will be fine IMO. It is a boiler. Get the ph right and roll.
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                • #23
                  Re: Which brand do you prefer for residential gas boilers?

                  Originally posted by Gettinit View Post
                  They will be fine IMO. It is a boiler. Get the ph right and roll.
                  Unfortunately, it's not quite that simple...

                  Here is slantfin - This warranty specifically excludes boilers operated with
                  combustion air contaminated externally by chemical or
                  corrosive vapors, improper fuel additives or with
                  water/system conditioners which may cause heat exchanger
                  failure. In addition, this warranty excludes boilers that have
                  failed or malfunctioned due to improper or negligent
                  operation, accident, abuse, freezing, misuse, unauthorized
                  alteration or improper repair or maintenance. Any use of anti-
                  freeze other than that supplied by SlanVFin or specifically
                  approved and/or recommended for use by Slant-Fin will void
                  this warranty.

                  Peerless - Read line 4 in their warranty

                  Triangle tube is impossible to find, but I'm willing to bet they have disclosure as well. (they make awesome indirect fired water heaters)

                  I forget which one, but one of these manufactures specifically states the use of any type of acid to clean the coils is not to be used. Which tells me that some contractor installed one of these in a hard water area, acid washed the boiler, and the heat exchanger failed.

                  I'm a cold hard facts guy, and I've yet to read anything that states these tin can units have lasted 30+ years in this country.

                  There are controls on the market for traditional boilers to lower fuel consumption and some boilers have energy star ratings. These companies just didn't sit back and let the tankless industry pass them by, and you know how strict the EPA is with energy ratings.

                  Like tankless water heaters, there are some good theories regarding tankless, but I'm still not sold on the longevity of these units.

                  Also keep in mind other areas around the country don't have oil as their only main source of fuel to heat their homes like we do here in the Northeast. In my area of Pennsylvania, that's probably why I've only seen 1 condensing boiler in my entire career, and we have many area's around me that have extremely hard water, and lot's of private wells.

                  This is why I say condensing boilers are not an ideal situation for residential in my area. It's one thing to try and sell one of these units, and then saying.."Oh yea, you need a water softener as well, but be careful, because some warranties are voided with with the use of water softener".

                  I'll stick to the traditional boilers.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Which brand do you prefer for residential gas boilers?

                    If the unit is made of stainless steel many of the cleaners will make it grow a fungus looking bunch of crap inside. There shouldn't even be a need to worry about a 2 story house or smaller. The only way you will have coil issues is when you keep introducing new water to the system. This should never happen. Why do you think black iron lasts over 50 years on a boiler closed loop system? I am not saying these will outlive cast iron boilers but I wouldn't exclude them from jobs. You cannot beat them on a radiant job, that's where you see the big savings. Tankless water heater are not crap, they are just not efficient and do not save the customer the big bucks promised. They are lied to. You cannot compare a tankless boiler to tankless water heater. Apples and carrots. The best cast iron residential/light commercial boiler IMO is Buderus and they make tankless. Nothing lasts in this country because nobody wants to take care of their responsibilities.
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                    • #25
                      Re: Which brand do you prefer for residential gas boilers?

                      Originally posted by Gettinit View Post
                      If the unit is made of stainless steel many of the cleaners will make it grow a fungus looking bunch of crap inside. There shouldn't even be a need to worry about a 2 story house or smaller. The only way you will have coil issues is when you keep introducing new water to the system. This should never happen. Why do you think black iron lasts over 50 years on a boiler closed loop system? I am not saying these will outlive cast iron boilers but I wouldn't exclude them from jobs. You cannot beat them on a radiant job, that's where you see the big savings. Tankless water heater are not crap, they are just not efficient and do not save the customer the big bucks promised. They are lied to. You cannot compare a tankless boiler to tankless water heater. Apples and carrots. The best cast iron residential/light commercial boiler IMO is Buderus and they make tankless. Nothing lasts in this country because nobody wants to take care of their responsibilities.
                      I just don't agree with some of your assessments, but you're entitled to them. Tankless isn't for us and if a customer really pushes hard for one of these units, they have the wrong contractor in their home.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Which brand do you prefer for residential gas boilers?

                        Originally posted by Flux View Post
                        I just don't agree with some of your assessments, but you're entitled to them. Tankless isn't for us and if a customer really pushes hard for one of these units, they have the wrong contractor in their home.
                        If it makes you feel better I wouldn't install a tankless water heater.

                        What don't you agree with? I may be wrong and I would like to know your thoughts? Or, at least where you think I am wrong so I can go back and do some research. I just can only speak to the Buderus line and generalities of tankless heaters. I will assume we are talking boilers unless you say otherwise.
                        AllurePlumbing.com
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                        • #27
                          Re: Which brand do you prefer for residential gas boilers?

                          Originally posted by Gettinit View Post
                          If it makes you feel better I wouldn't install a tankless water heater.

                          What don't you agree with? I may be wrong and I would like to know your thoughts? Or, at least where you think I am wrong so I can go back and do some research. I just can only speak to the Buderus line and generalities of tankless heaters. I will assume we are talking boilers unless you say otherwise.
                          I don't like neither tanks, but I was mainly talking about the condensing boilers.

                          I'm one of those guys that don't like change or trying to re-invent the wheel per se. How long have we been hearing about solar & wind power, and every generation eats it up, then find out it's not all what it's crack up to be.

                          Every now and then, I'll read an article on the actual efficiency of these condensing boilers, and the numbers are not matching up to what the claim it will have. (yes I even read the myths articles) Now I've never installed one, serviced one, or even did an efficiency test on one, and I'm extremely skeptical of them. Personally I think the industry is pushing these tankless units to lesson our carbon foot print, and fudging with the numbers a long the way to make their case. But how far off really are the "real" efficiency numbers between traditional boilers and tankless?

                          We also don't install radiant systems, that's the one wet heat we don't do, so maybe tankless is good for that application...I don't know.

                          But I'm fickle when it comes to reading warranties and the fine print, and for these manufactures to put a clause in there about hard water/water softeners/sediment/ acid treatments...gives me reason to pause. Yes they are closed systems, but yet fresh water still has to get in there for when the tankless/system is low on water.

                          You said it best at the end of one of your posts in here...people don't want to take care of responsibilities. So what makes me think people will do the right thing and treat their water or keep up on the maintenance of these units or the softener? We install water softeners, and I can tell you right now most people in my area do NOT want softeners, cause they don't like the way the feel after a shower.

                          Tankless water heaters are struggling to take off in my area because of our hard water and wells, but yet we have 1 contractor who is supposedly booked beyond belief with tankless installs. I don't know whether to believe that or not, cause our customer base is very big and I would be certain to run across tankless water heaters, and I have yet to see one installed in my area.

                          With the controls that are on the market for traditional boilers to lower fuel consumption and to lower run times...why even change?

                          Can we sit here and honestly say with straight faces that the majority of condensing boilers will last 30+ like it's counterpart? I was talking about the FT series from Columbia boiler in this thread, and we ripped out one my dad installed over 35 years ago, and it looked brand new, except for the domestic coil blocking up over the years cause of "responsibilities" of the home owner and it was disconnected. The only reason why the customer changed it was because he was afraid it would eventually leak one day. Columbia was so impressed but not shocked, they thought about keeping it for when they hold classes and seminars. The FT series is what put Columbia on the map and there are still tons out there in this area still in service pushing 40 + years, even though they don't make that model per se...but still kind of do under another series.

                          Being a Plumbing & Heating contractor, what incentive would I have to even want to change if I had a traditional boiler installed? I would gladly pay the the few extra bucks in fuel consumption to have peace of mind that 30+ years from now, that boiler will still be humming a long. Yes the concept of tankless has supposedly been in Europe for 50 years!!!! That's all we hear anymore is Europe this and that, but this isn't Europe, and we don't have their climates -water quality etc, and there was a reason why we struggled to grasp this concept over here.

                          Lastly, I went to a Noritz class a few years ago, and every single blowhard Plumbing & Heating contractor from the area was in this class stroking each other off about how they are going to sell these tankless sytems blah blah. But yet I was the only person in that class who raised his hand to ask the tough questions, and my question was "Can these units be acid washed?" I thought every single person in the class was going to have a stroke, and the counter people looked like they wanted to throw me out...lol. The salesman look directly at me and said "Yes, they can be acid washed and should be maintained". Now this was before "flow-aid" (or something like that) and other products came out on the market.

                          So my next question to the salesman was " Anyone who has acid washed boilers before (gasp from the other contractors in the room) knows that you can only acid wash a coil so many times before it needs to be changed, and my question was can these copper fin tubes be changed?" Long pause from the salesman...."No they can't, they need to get another unit". After that answer I was ready to leave the class as the pizza was finished already, and there was nothing more I needed to know about tankless anything. Salesman never made eye contact with me again, and had quite a few contractors who asked me about acid washing, cause normally only the Oil companies in the area provide that service if at all cause of the liability.

                          I just don't believe everything I hear and read...espically from salesmen,EPA, or any other group or person who has a stake in what they are pushing.

                          Hope this helps explain my thinking.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Which brand do you prefer for residential gas boilers?

                            Wow some of you contractors need to get to grips with condensing / combi boiler technology. I have installed hundreds of condensing and combination boilers in the UK some 28 years ago and yes the fast majority are still working. For the last ten years in the UK condensing has bean compulsory.
                            To be honest when I finished my apprenticeship 29 years ago we all had a similar attitude to this new technology did not take long to be accepted as better technology though.
                            I wont try to convince you one manufacture product is better than another though, but don't touch it unless it has a stainless steel heat ex changer.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Which brand do you prefer for residential gas boilers?

                              Originally posted by royalmike View Post
                              Wow some of you contractors need to get to grips with condensing / combi boiler technology. I have installed hundreds of condensing and combination boilers in the UK some 28 years ago and yes the fast majority are still working. For the last ten years in the UK condensing has bean compulsory.
                              To be honest when I finished my apprenticeship 29 years ago we all had a similar attitude to this new technology did not take long to be accepted as better technology though.
                              I wont try to convince you one manufacture product is better than another though, but don't touch it unless it has a stainless steel heat ex changer.
                              What are you using to clean the waterways of the heat exchanger? And for heavens sake don't say vinegar.
                              AllurePlumbing.com
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                              • and other specialties.

                              Greensboro NC, Winston-Salem NC, High Point NC, Thomasville NC, Kernersville NC

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