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  • Burnham continuous ignition problem :Buzzing Noise

    Constant problem that occurs on my new installation of burnham series 2 mod 203nil gei2 nat gas boiler with electronic ignition. I have 3 honeywellzone valves & honeywell electronic thermostats. System was installed by lic plumber, who has been trying to resolve over 6 follow up visits to date & claims to have contacted burnham engineering


    1. Boiler circ kicks on , auto damper opens ign sounds (slight buzzing noise) &burner ignites. During heating cycle a loud buzzing noise continues for about 1-2 minutes and stops & the repeats at various times during call for heat. The gas valve when you place hands on appears to be source of noise.Plumber is now checking on availability of flame sensor even though he electricaly cked & found nothing wrong with sensor or electric chek module(black box w/flashing codes that indicates a flame rod problem. (flame rod is from burnham manual designation under troubleshooting.
    2. Next the low water cutoff switch shows amber lite. Plumber changed wiring on switch around to bypass , . so I would have heat . He claims that LWC probe has flux or other debris on & will go away after about 2 weeks now that boiler is being used for heat every day/ I also hear a
      ker-chunk sound when boiler shut s down. I am sticking with this plumber as I must & he must warrants his installation. I think he is making a good faith effort & shows up every time he is called. This plumber was/is on my gas suppliers list as recommended installer . On 11/12 he replaced pilot ignition, with no change problem buzzing problem noise remains. Plumber is now requesting Burnham field technician come with him on next visit.

      Thanks in advance to anybody who can provide some ideas of what to check as to why a brand new boiler would have these problems. . I witnessed this boiler being received new from box Also should I request a new replacement of this boiler. Also am I damaging anything by running boiler ?
    3. Thanks :Utah

  • #2
    Re: Burnham continuous ignition problem :Buzzing Noise

    The most likely possibility is incorrect or low voltage. That would cause gas valve chatter, nuisance lwco issues, and improper flame sensing. Bad grounds and loose neutrals would also cause bad flame sensing. The klunking on shutdown is most probably the pump. Taco pumps are known for this. Look for a small pump green or black in color.

    If the problem is incorrect voltage then the physical boiler will be ok, the controls will probably be bad.

    Edit: your guy may be honoring his warranty but by changing parts that really didnt need to be changed it appears that he may be well out of his element. plumbing is not the same as troubleshooting hvac equipment. any hvac contractor can honor a valid warranty, however there may be labor costs. consider getting a second opinion from another company. it may be worth it.
    Last edited by Plumber Punky; 11-14-2012, 05:43 PM.
    ~~

    ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Burnham continuous ignition problem :Buzzing Noise

      Just because an led says a particular part is bad does not mean it is bad. Case in point, I had a heater blinking a transformer issue. The other company was out there half a day before I went out there. The problem was a gas cock turned in the off position. Like P. punky said, get an hvac guy out.
      AllurePlumbing.com
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      • #4
        Re: Burnham continuous ignition problem :Buzzing Noise

        Thanks to Ppunky & Getinit for responses.

        Burnham rep for area is coming w/plumber n/week. I think my installation plumber should have requested Burnham earlier. In fairness to plumber when I reported this problem to him the first thing he said was he would be out to to go over elcectricals : specifically grounding as Burnham recommended he do this (which he did and showed all was good using volt meter & ground verify) Burnham said he should then go to Flame sensor & next to honeywell gas valve.

        My concerns are twofold in getting problem resolved & longevity of controls. In otherwords will this problem have shortened life of boiler controls(plumberpunky's:
        "If the problem is incorrect voltage then the physical boiler will be ok, the controls will probably be bad")
        Burnham warranty is one year. Do I request Burnham provide extension to warranty ? or provide new gas valve based on chattering going on for over 2 months ?

        Obviously I've a limited knowledge of boilers, I switched from a 45 year old oil burner & tank mainly to get rid of tank (older then 45 yrs.) in basement & take advantage of nat gas which I only cooked on & ran clothes drier. In looking at this very small (62K btu)boiler that besides it's casting & gas burner has very few internal parts: water setting temp valve ,pressure & temp gage. All others are what I would think of as external (expensive) controls including a black box with diagnostics & controls Burnham should provide me with documentation / assurance that these parts have not been damaged or compromised. If any components of the boiler has failed at this early date: Burnham must have problems. My utility company is the one who utilizes Burnham products & provided rebates for customers who convert from oil to n gas.
        Thanks again

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Burnham continuous ignition problem :Buzzing Noise

          Hopefully it is only a gas pressure issue causing a lazy pilot. Just because the grounds at the boiler are good does not mean they are good in the panel.
          AllurePlumbing.com
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          • #6
            Re: Burnham continuous ignition problem :Buzzing Noise

            The transformer that comes with that boiler is not capable of operating 3 zone valves. Hopefully he has installed a zone control module or wired in a separate transformer designated for the zone valves. If he's using the boiler transformer to operate zone valves it may work for a while but not for long. This can cause a buzzing noise but buzzing sounds typically come from the pump relay. Put your hand on that to feel the vibration. Be sure it's fully inserted into the socket and has the brace properly installed.

            It shouldn't take 6 visits from the plumber to solve this problem or even a visit from the Burnham rep. Clearly, he's in over his head though. Changing parts at random on a new boiler is ridiculous. Burnham has an excellent track record for quality control. That boiler worked when it left the factory. The problem is most likely installation or something external to the boiler.

            My experience with reps is that they are really just a pacifier and are only there to quiet the homeowner. Rarely do they actually solve anything that the installer didn't already catch.

            I second the idea of getting another opinion.

            Bill

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            • #7
              Re: Burnham continuous ignition problem :Buzzing Noise

              I didnt want to burst his bubble about a bad install. Buuuutt, now that it's out:

              If it is proven to be a bad install - overloaded transformer, etc. - then I would request new controls - aquastat, transformer (if applicable), ignition controller, gas valve. Have the rep check other things while he's there too...flow direction, purge valves, bypass valve, etc... to make sure it is right in other respects as well.

              It is ultimately your responsibility to read the manual, look at the pictures, and determine if it looks right. Dont be afraid to ask, it's your good money paying for this job.
              ~~

              ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Burnham continuous ignition problem :Buzzing Noise

                Thanks again to Bill,Getinit & Plumberpunky:
                Great forum.

                When my installer checked for problems one of the checks he did was disconnect zone valves & problem buzzing still happened. These 3 valves were previously used in my oil burner setup with no problem. The Z/valves were installed in 2007 & ran off of honeywells transformer & relay. Plumber removed relay & used new transformer stating relay is not used in new setup. However when installation was ready for testing thermostadt would not start system, plumber went thru much troubleshooting before realizing that he had wires in junction box on boiler wrong. He corrected wiring & system responded to farthermost, he reported all was good, at the time we did not run system for long & was not aware of buzzing noise.
                I don't think my plumber is/was aware this furnace (selected by him ) transformer capabilities. The circulator pump is a Grundfos UP-15-42F. When furnace was delivered it came with Burnhams equipment list detailing 7 items listed with series 2 boiler(parts bag, instructions,circulator, vent damper, draft hood, relief valve, drain valve and various other pipe parts etc.

                I assumed Burnham supplies all of the above items & they are compatible with furnace. Burnham's instruction manual gives recommendatios for water piping zone valves I do not see any electrical info on zone valves. Obviously any manufacturer depends on a qualified installer being used. Idid check plumbers lic & if any complaints(none) with county. & relied on utility co. recommendation of plumbers that they considered qualified. I do note that this loud buzzing happens when on zone is working or all are open. I also noticed that plumber on every visit has opened boiler transformer box for jumping or moving of wires around, he also never seems to consult any written instructions. Uses his phone & explains problems to others. I think the rep that is coming is from Burnham's distributor for this area & may have been previously providing info to plumber.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Burnham continuous ignition problem :Buzzing Noise

                  Sometimes the answers are not in the manual. At least he is coming by and willing to pick up the phone and call someone else. Nobody knows everything and sometimes the littlest of detail are missed by Tue best. It sounds as if there is progress being made however slow it may be.
                  AllurePlumbing.com
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                  Greensboro NC, Winston-Salem NC, High Point NC, Thomasville NC, Kernersville NC

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                  • #10
                    Re: Burnham continuous ignition problem :Buzzing Noise

                    The Honeywell transformer and relay are needed to run the zone valves as another poster has stated. The klunk could still be the pump stopping and check valves closing, or water hammer when the zone valves close. Burnham will provide parts needed for a basic install, nothing more. To me it sounds like:

                    1. A plumber installed this unit. Just because he's licensed does not automatically mean qualified. You need an HVAC guy. (I am a plumber and have no issue with this statement.)

                    2. To not read the instructions ensures a problem. To further not consult them when there IS a problem proves he's a mental idiot.

                    3. Zone valve power usage is typically stated on the valve. Max number of valves and/or power consumption is stated in the manual.

                    4. Jumping wires haphazardly inside any electrical box, transformer or not, is nearly always a recipe for disaster.

                    If it were my house and my hvac guy had this issue, i'd call a different hvac guy. it's worth the money.
                    ~~

                    ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Burnham continuous ignition problem :Buzzing Noise

                      Installation and operation manual does show wiring for Honeywell zone valves on page 21. This is assuming you have the new 2012 D.O.E. Compliant model and not the pre Sept. 2012 model. Slightly different wiring configuration.

                      http://www.usboiler.net/products/boi...ts/Series2.pdf

                      It's difficult to troubleshoot wiring over the phone. The other tech should probably be on-site.

                      Is the error code always the same? Flame Rod Failure? How often does it fail?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Burnham continuous ignition problem :Buzzing Noise

                        Thanks Plumberscrack: you are correct about manual showing wiring details for zone valves. Manual states that flair and taco valves(not honeywell) could have cross phasing?. Wiring schematic is on page 17 of manual 103385-1/11. My installation was completed in July 2012 so I guess it is not the DOE model you ref. So far I am & must stick with this plumber who; as I mentioned is responsive in trying to resolve this problem. He is local and I am sure is concerned about his rep.

                        The error code LED flashes repeat continuously during heat on cycle & always end up at 8 total flashes. Tey are referred to in manual as green led flame codes. One time the plumber counted 7 flashes which would mean flame rod shorted to ground, I've always counted a total of 8. Of course if I deduct the first 2 flashes for internal check & startup I would have 6 flash which means control internal error in turn this code (6) staes that Control remains in wait mode. When the fault corrects control resumes normal operation. If this code 6 is happening recommended action ststes: Cycle call for heat. If error repeats replace control. The boiler always continues on & supplies heat.

                        This this control, I am beginning to think this Black box is a high $ item & as it controls gas valve & ignition system may well be the problem. I do not know how Burnham handles re reimbursement of $ to plumbers for warrenty parts on new installation, I hope this $ factor has not been a factor in solving this problem. Thanks again for your help.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Burnham continuous ignition problem :Buzzing Noise

                          Plumbers are often called for boiler work and just as often show up. But here in Minnesota one can take an pass his master plumbers test without answering one question concerning heating or even fuel burning appliance of any kind.

                          Further, I have found plumbers literally afraid of electricity. This is probably a good thing.

                          Fortunately I personally started out in HVAC where wiring controls is a given and then went to plumbing and graduated to boilers. This is uncommon.

                          We are a certified Burnham contractor in Minneapolis and follow up on many poor installations that could have been avoided had the installing contractor simply read and understood the installation manual. The savvy boiler contractor may also go to various training seminars promoted by Burnham or call their very excellent tech services line for help.

                          We work on with the Alpine condensing boilers and like their new E3 with weater sensitive controls where high efficiency boilers are not justified, but never have a problem with factory service.

                          In the end every successful boiler installation is the result of a knowledgeable technician.
                          Attached Files
                          When in doubt, find someone without.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Burnham continuous ignition problem :Buzzing Noise

                            Originally posted by BadgerBoiler MN View Post
                            Plumbers are often called for boiler work and just as often show up. But here in Minnesota one can take an pass his master plumbers test without answering one question concerning heating or even fuel burning appliance of any kind.

                            Further, I have found plumbers literally afraid of electricity. This is probably a good thing.

                            Fortunately I personally started out in HVAC where wiring controls is a given and then went to plumbing and graduated to boilers. This is uncommon.

                            We are a certified Burnham contractor in Minneapolis and follow up on many poor installations that could have been avoided had the installing contractor simply read and understood the installation manual. The savvy boiler contractor may also go to various training seminars promoted by Burnham or call their very excellent tech services line for help.

                            We work on with the Alpine condensing boilers and like their new E3 with weater sensitive controls where high efficiency boilers are not justified, but never have a problem with factory service.

                            In the end every successful boiler installation is the result of a knowledgeable technician.
                            You are so wonderful! Who cares if someone is Burnham certified. That doesn't mean squat. They make a good product but far from needing a rocket scientist or a certificate.
                            AllurePlumbing.com
                            • leak detection
                            • drain cleaning
                            • utility locating
                            • conductor fault locating
                            • and other specialties.

                            Greensboro NC, Winston-Salem NC, High Point NC, Thomasville NC, Kernersville NC

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Burnham continuous ignition problem :Buzzing Noise

                              Originally posted by utah1 View Post
                              Thanks Plumberscrack: you are correct about manual showing wiring details for zone valves. Manual states that flair and taco valves(not honeywell) could have cross phasing?. Wiring schematic is on page 17 of manual 103385-1/11. My installation was completed in July 2012 so I guess it is not the DOE model you ref. So far I am & must stick with this plumber who; as I mentioned is responsive in trying to resolve this problem. He is local and I am sure is concerned about his rep.

                              The error code LED flashes repeat continuously during heat on cycle & always end up at 8 total flashes. Tey are referred to in manual as green led flame codes. One time the plumber counted 7 flashes which would mean flame rod shorted to ground, I've always counted a total of 8. Of course if I deduct the first 2 flashes for internal check & startup I would have 6 flash which means control internal error in turn this code (6) staes that Control remains in wait mode. When the fault corrects control resumes normal operation. If this code 6 is happening recommended action ststes: Cycle call for heat. If error repeats replace control. The boiler always continues on & supplies heat.

                              This this control, I am beginning to think this Black box is a high $ item & as it controls gas valve & ignition system may well be the problem. I do not know how Burnham handles re reimbursement of $ to plumbers for warrenty parts on new installation, I hope this $ factor has not been a factor in solving this problem. Thanks again for your help.
                              The black box you refer to may be a Honeywell S8610U ignition control system. They are relatively inexpensive, approx. $95 online.

                              Attachment
                              Attached Files
                              ~~

                              ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

                              Comment

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