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  • Boiler professional licensing

    recently a newer poster with no regard for his own safety or for the saftey of others posted about a boiler installation with an insane amount of pressures and installation anomolies. The numbers and missing items the poster quoted were beyond belief and unfortunatly posted in such a way to cause this plumber extreme concern for the saftey of everyone involved with the poster.

    While boiler heat properly installed is very safe and the most comfortable available, it is dangerous if incompetently installed or maintained. The state of Illinois has no licensing requirements for the installers or maintainers of boiler systems. Some communities have inspection programs and certain institutions such as hospitals and nursing homes have state inspection plans but they allow for any idiot with a flashlight and inspection mirror to look at and work on them.

    Does anyone here know if any other states have a licensing program for boiler installers or is this an overlooked yet critical area we need to work on. If someone has information of another States competent licensing program I would be very interested in downloading a full copy of the code and the laws involved. This is an area where I want no carverelli's in my State.

    My personal thoughts are that a boiler professional should have at least 3 years experience as a plumber or a pipefitter and serve an additional 2 years as a boiler trade apprentice to be certified as a licensed boiler technician. I would also think it prudent that any boiler technician have at least 5 years in trade experience before being allowed to sell, install and maintain boiler systems.

    Anyone else have thoughts on this subject?
    Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

  • #2
    plumber are you calling me out? I never claimed to be a boiler installer guru. Certainly not near as much advanced whatever as you have. I was not the lead plumber on this install I spoke ( wrote) of. I have installed lots of various piping systems , and while I know the upc fairly well, I haven't come across installation standards for hot water heat. To me its just the same material I've used w/ domestic water delivery for a different purpose. I can read blueprints and have worked on enough systems to know when something is not exactly right. I've posted twice about the system in ? and all I get is bull****.
    I would aggree these systems can be potentially dangerous. There isn't enough demand where I live for dedicated boiler installers, so plumbers usually do double duty. We call it "installing the wet side of the hvac". Not every job I do has hydronics as well as plumbing. But as I said before I put it in as drawn. If I don't aggree with part of the installation instructions I speak up- ask questions. But i've learn there isn't any help on this board-only a butt load of guff like " this idiot needs to find a qualifed dude to shoe him the way" He's a dander to himself and everyone around bla bla bla.
    Whatever parameters you want to know about this systems that I haven't posted already just ask. There is a lot I don't know about this kind of stuff, but if the company I work for is installing them and they want me to put it in, I'll put it in the best way I know how. If it makes your panties bunch up -tough crap


    • #3

      You might try NJ DCA -Codes and Standards, Bureau of Boiler and Pressure Vessel Compliance at (609) 984-2248.

      You can contact the Bureau of Boiler and Pressure Vessel Compliance either by telephone or in writing at P.O. Box 814, Trenton, NJ 08625-0814.

      The Boiler, Pressure Vessel and Refirgeration Act (N.J.S. 34:714 et seq) and N.J.A.C. 5:11, Boilers, Pressure Vessels and Refrigeration.


      • #4

        You might want to check out these Washington State webpages;

        Snipped from the above page:
        "About the Boiler Program - Installation or reinstallation permits are required before any new or existing boiler/unfired or pressure vessel is installed, reinstalled, or moved in the state of Washington. L&I staff perform the inspections and investigations and issue permits and operating certificates."

        RCW 70.79.090 Exemptions From Certain Provisions:

        The following boilers and unfired pressure vessels shall be exempt from the requirements of RCW 70.79.220 and 70.79.240 through70.79.330 :

        (4) Hot water heating boilers carrying a pressure of not more than thirty pounds per square inch and which are located in private residences or in apartment houses of less than six families;

        Chapter 296-104 WAC Board of Boiler Rules can be found here:

        RCW stands for "Revised Code of Washington"
        WAC is for "Washington Administrative Code"

        Took me about 10 minutes to come up with this information, sorry if you think I and others are picking on you, but you need to do a little research and get some more hands-on. Our concern has nothing to do with you personally, it is a genuine concern for those who may be injured or killed by a less than competent installation.

        This appears to be the requirements in Washington for someone to be a plumber;

        RCW 18.106.070
        Certificates of Competency, Installer Endorsement — Issuance — Renewal — Rights of Holder — Training Certificates — Supervision — Training, Certified Plumber.

        (1) The department shall issue a certificate of competency to all applicants who have passed the examination and have paid the fee for the certificate. The certificate shall bear the date of issuance, and shall expire on the birthdate of the holder immediately following the date of issuance. The certificate shall be renewable every other year, upon application, on or before the birthdate of the holder. The department shall renew a certificate of competency if the applicant: (a) Pays the renewal fee assessed by the department; and (b) during the past two years has completed sixteen hours of continuing education approved by the department with the advice of the advisory board, including four hours related to electrical safety. If a person fails to renew the certificate by the renewal date, he or she must pay a doubled fee. If the person does not renew the certificate within ninety days of the renewal date, he or she must retake the examination and pay the examination fee.

        The journeyman plumber and specialty plumber certificates of competency, the medical gas piping installer endorsement, and the temporary permit provided for in this chapter grant the holder the right to engage in the work of plumbing as a journeyman plumber, specialty plumber, or medical gas piping installer, in accordance with their provisions throughout the state and within any of its political subdivisions on any job or any employment without additional proof of competency or any other license or permit or fee to engage in the work. This section does not preclude employees from adhering to a union security clause in any employment where such a requirement exists.

        (2) A person who is indentured in an apprenticeship program approved under chapter 49.04 RCW for the plumbing construction trade or who is learning the plumbing construction trade may work in the plumbing construction trade if supervised by a certified journeyman plumber or a certified specialty plumber in that plumber's specialty. All apprentices and individuals learning the plumbing construction trade shall obtain a plumbing training certificate from the department. The certificate shall authorize the holder to learn the plumbing construction trade while under the direct supervision of a journeyman plumber or a specialty plumber working in his or her specialty. The holder of the plumbing training certificate shall renew the certificate annually. At the time of renewal, the holder shall provide the department with an accurate list of the holder's employers in the plumbing construction industry for the previous year and the number of hours worked for each employer. An annual fee shall be charged for the issuance or renewal of the certificate. The department shall set the fee by rule. The fee shall cover but not exceed the cost of administering and enforcing the trainee certification and supervision requirements of this chapter. Apprentices and individuals learning the plumbing construction trade shall have their plumbing training certificates in their possession at all times that they are performing plumbing work. They shall show their certificates to an authorized representative of the department at the representative's request.

        (3) Any person who has been issued a plumbing training certificate under this chapter may work if that person is under supervision. Supervision shall consist of a person being on the same job site and under the control of either a journeyman plumber or an appropriate specialty plumber who has an applicable certificate of competency issued under this chapter. Either a journeyman plumber or an appropriate specialty plumber shall be on the same job site as the noncertified individual for a minimum of seventy-five percent of each working day unless otherwise provided in this chapter. The ratio of noncertified individuals to certified journeymen or specialty plumbers working on a job site shall be: (a) Not more than two noncertified plumbers working on any one job site for every certified specialty plumber or journeyman plumber working as a specialty plumber; and (b) not more than one noncertified plumber working on any one job site for every certified journeyman plumber working as a journeyman plumber.

        An individual who has a current training certificate and who has successfully completed or is currently enrolled in an approved apprenticeship program or in a technical school program in the plumbing construction trade in a school approved by the work force training and education coordinating board, may work without direct on-site supervision during the last six months of meeting the practical experience requirements of this chapter.

        (4) An individual who has a current training certificate and who has successfully completed or is currently enrolled in a medical gas piping installer training course approved by the department may work on medical gas piping systems if the individual is under the direct supervision of a certified medical gas piping installer who holds a medical gas piping installer endorsement one hundred percent of a working day on a one-to-one ratio.

        (5) The training to become a certified plumber must include not less than sixteen hours of classroom training established by the director with the advice of the advisory board. The classroom training must include, but not be limited to, electrical wiring safety, grounding, bonding, and other related items plumbers need to know to work under RCW 19.28.091.

        (6) All persons who are certified plumbers before January 1, 2003, are deemed to have received the classroom training required in subsection (5) of this section.

        I have not found anything concerning certification with respect to heating systems or boiler work. In NJ, there is a seperate state issued license for Plumbing and another for Heating.


        • #5

          I don't know about others but I believe you are a danger to yourself and those around you. When I make a post using my 30+ years of experience you blow it off as being overly cautious. Why in the World would I care to school you and expose more people to your attitude?

          When you come in as a new poster and ask for advise which you immediately discount you are not asking for advise.

          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!


          • #6
            Thanks Bob D. I will use the information and numbers you provided.
            Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.


            • #7
              I never discount worthwhile advice. I do however filter the bs from sound advice. I never asked anyone to qualify me as an installer from their lofty standards. I am and will continue to install hydronic systems when asked to my the outfit(s) I work for. And will do it to the best of my ability.
              Its your call whether you want to help a fellow plumber or shut up. I secured my commercial journeyman license in 1996 with a cumulative score of 92 %(passing is 75). In the heavier commercial plumbing market there is a call for hydronic systems installed my the same company doing the domestic stuff. If my boss has no problem w/ it and the local inspectors have no problem w/ it , I can't see why you and others have a big beef. I'm not perfect, and don't claim to be, and I learn quick. As I said before, you can accelerate the learning cure and maybe save a few lives( the ones you think I'm endangering) or not. Later


              • #8
                Bob D, those web pages are great- thanks


                • #9

                  If you are your companies lead installer of boilers and you have 6 total installs to your name, (you say your company has even fewer,) and you are working with a system that you have no understanding of then yes I am calling you out. You have no business doing what you are doing and you are going to get someone hurt very badly if not worse.

                  Other posts on other subjects indicate that you have little to no regard for the simplest of safety procedures and you have bragged about your indifference to standard codes and practices. Now you are working with boiler systems you know little about and you make smart assed relpies if others don't help guide you along with FREE information.

                  This thread was about hydronic licensing. Something I am sure you will never bother to qualify for because you feel you are above standard procedures and that rules don't apply to you unless you feel like it..

                  I came on this site about a year ago looking to communicate with fellow tradesmen, discuss tools, and maybe help a few competent do it yourselfers with non hazzardous projects and private plumbing problems. It never occured to me at the time that people such as yourself with no business in any of the trades would also come around.

                  In that I have no desire to share information with someone as disrespectful as yourself (go to school and pay for it) I will say addios to this site for a good while. I've needed to spend less time in front of my computer and thank you for giving me incentive to stay off.

                  There are some highly qualified and knowledgable people on this site carverelli and I have learned much from them. When you start taking things like safety and codes seriously and when you decide to quit insulting others when they give good sound and safe advice you will learn something too.

                  SAFETY FIRST
                  Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.


                  • #10
                    never mind- maybe I'll go to Illinois and look for work . My father in law lives in Baylis and brother in law in Mattoon.


                    • #11
                      what we have here ... is failuer to comuncate [img]tongue.gif[/img]
                      9/11/01, never forget.


                      • #12
                        "In that I have no desire to share information with someone as disrespectful as yourself (go to school and pay for it) I will say addios to this site for a good while. I've needed to spend less time in front of my computer and thank you for giving me incentive to stay off."

                        Plumber, there are also those of us, myself included, who highly appreciate the skill, experience and knowledge you have and are willing to generously share with the rest of us here. The tradesman who says he knows it all or even comes CLOSE to it, no matter HOW many years of experience, is simply full of it. This field demands never-ending learning and growing. There are HVAC guys out there with 40 years under their belt and still taking classes on the neweest technology and techniques. And someone with your length of time in the field and experience will always have something to teach us. Don't punish the entire lot because of one simpleton whose over-sized ego and under-sized fallic organ will not allow him to take a little flak along with good advice because he would rather BS us all with his "qualifications", in which case if they existed in even a small quantity to the amount he claims he would'nt have asked for such basic installation advice on a plumbing site in the first place.

                        Stick around, we need ya, and just ignore the clowns in the parade.


                        • #13
                          "Its your call whether you want to help a fellow plumber or shut up."

                          Listen, you disrespectful schmuck. Plumber has given you advice in the past, and is simply concerned that even answering your questions and posts anymore might even make him liable at least in his own conscious for someday when you post back here and tell us about the people with third degree burns from your exploding boiler.

                          You came on here for advice and you got some, along with some very stern and well deserved warnings about safety and responsibility. And you respond with vitriol and contempt because you can't handle a little flak. I call into question whether you are a plumber at all anymore....and if you are you are more likely a first year apprentice. Coming up through MY apprenticeship I had to take a whole HELLA lotta flak from my journeymen and admins...including getting yelled at and treated like a general minion. That's part of the program, it has a great ability to filter out the idiots and knuckleheads quickly out of the trade like Marine Corps Boot Camp. The obvious fact you can't take any at all shows you are hardly more than a rank amateur posing as an experienced plumber. And so yeh, you're getting "called out" by those who see right through your ungrateful BS. And now you are disgusting one of the best members of these forums to the point of leaving, thanks.

                          How do you like me now?

                          If you want to make a post like the one you made in the boiler install thread, and ask beginner questions while alluding to seriously alarming safety issues going on, expect strong replies, or go back to washing dishes in Denny's.


                          • #14
                            what seriously alarming safety ?'s are you referring to. You wonder if I'm a plumber at all?
                            I shouldn't have asked any direct questions about boilers at all. I thought this was a board where someone could ask a ? without being blasted w/ crap about "If you don't know that yet, I'm not going to tell you for fear the blood of others might fall on my hands". Fine then I could care less. Working in the hydronics field brings me back when I started plumbing tract homes on California. Within 6 months, I knew what I was doing but not why I was doing it. After becoming familiar w/ the upc, I started to understand why I was doing what I was doing.
                            You bash me for Taking safety lightly and even disobeyng the "code" at will. As far as plumbing goes I know what will work and what won't. Think what you will, but after my jobs are finished I seldom get call-backs. I didn't say never. Never is a long time. I don't use the term always for the same reason.
                            One reason I may seem a little disdainful is the fact that I didn't come up through the ranks(apprenticeship) with the constant guidance of a journeyman. The company I started for used a lot of specialty crews. You either ran waste, or water or gas. I learned from repetition. Within six months I was running a crew on a housing tract in Palmdale, CA. But it wasn't until I moved back to Washington did start plumbing like a pipefitter. Being able to plumb a house w/out supervision, I was turned loose. I also ran service when needed. We installed hundreds of waterheaters as an approved contractor for Sears.
                            In '92 I had enough hours to take the residential test for Wa state and scored very well. To this day I have a small problem working an apprentice because I'm too nice. And I do most of the work because most of the time they don't do it to my liking.
                            With my limited work in hydronics, I'm learning as I go. Like I said in an earlier post. I install it as its drawn. One of my first posts was about some basic boiler stuff. I don't remember what it was about now. But just like whne I was plumbing tract homes in Cal, I know what I'm doing but sometimes I don't know exactly why I'm doing it. If I building needs hydronics it usually has a mechanical engineering firm draw it up complete w/ isometric drawings showing all the neccessary part and pieces. After the first install I worked on, I learned about stuff that wasn't on the drawings. Items like low point drains, ways to vent the air. Some stuff like putting a drain on the chemical feed tank so the water could be drained out so more chemical could be added. Where to pull tees for the wells for the controls, how to check the expansion tank for the proper precharge, etc. These thing aren't on the drawing a lot of time and yet they are very essential. I have always been able to figure out most things w/ common sense. Some things that seem difficult and hard to decipher, are rather easy once you take one piece at a time. Hydronics are not rocket science. In Wa you don't have to be a licensed plumber to install the piping. If you understand basic plumbing stuff, you can install boiler piping. If not so I'm sure our government would say so. Hell you can't even drive a car safely in Wa w/out a seatbelt. I'm done ranting. And I won't defend my actions to any of you again. This board is a waste of time. A person might get some help using a pipe cutter or deburring a piece of ABS after cutting it with a hack saw, but real advice ,oh no. You aren't qualified to ask a question( or get advice) unless you have 30 years experience installing the very same thing you need help on. Reminds of asking the bank for money. They won't lend you any money until you prove to them that you don't need it. As far as being a smartass, I would aggree to that too. I come from a long line of smart asses. You haven't even seen the tip of my sarcasm. Sounds like a typical union plumber. Unless you go through their apprenticeship program and training you don't know squat. Most of the union guys I heard about couldn't plumb their way out of a wet paper bag, yet they can look down their noses at a scab like myself.
                            While I'm sure AZ, Utah, plumber, and plumbdog are somewhat knowledgeable, they also seem holier than thou, unwilling to help anyone with anything tougher than spelling plumber. I won't post again for some time. Maybe now and then. I've heard the trade will be in trouble soon for the lack of up and coming apprentices. I wonder why- then again I don't wonder at all! If I would have had to work under journeyman like those mentioned above, I would have found another line of work. I'm not an idiot and I won't be talked to like I am.
                            Boys, save your rhetoric for someone else.


                            • #15
                              " While I'm sure AZ, Utah, plumber, and plumbdog are somewhat knowledgeable, they also seem holier than thou, unwilling to help anyone with anything tougher than spelling plumber. I won't post again for some time. Maybe now and then. I've heard the trade will be in trouble soon for the lack of up and coming apprentices. I wonder why- then again I don't wonder at all! If I would have had to work under journeyman like those mentioned above, I would have found another line of work. I'm not an idiot and I won't be talked to like I am.
                              Boys, save your rhetoric for someone else."

                              well i guess i didn't make the list.
                              glad i don't do hydronics. although i do large commercial potable domestic boilers. i can't compare a domestic system to a hydronic system. in fact my insurance co doesn't allow for work on a hydronic system.

                              guy's we've all had our share of differences. look back a few months and see how plumber and i went at it. it all ended on a good note and look i don't CAPITALIZE anymore. i'm sure all involved will move on and get past this.

                              this forum is for both the trade and homeowner to share and learn from each other. it only works if all parties can share their thoughts, right, wrong, or questionable.

                              time for all to move on and get onto a new subject matter.


                              ps. i guess i'm not left out now.