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Please help, CONFUSED!!!!!

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  • Please help, CONFUSED!!!!!

    Ok, I need to get smart on this. I have an 80% efficent furnace, 10K BTU venting into a masonry chimney with a 6" clay tile flew. IN addition, we have our water heater venting into the same chimney. Now, I was having some problems last winter, excessive moisture, ignitors not lighting, draft inducer motor died, rusty gas valves, from condensation apparently forming in the 6" clay tiles and running back down. I have been told I need a chimney Liner. Now I have gotten price quotes, ranging from 275.00 to well over 1000.00. That in and of itself sends up red flags right there. Now I have had one contractor that has told me that he might only be able to get a 3" liner in there, so he will have to leave it uncapped and allow the water heater to vent on the outside of it. That sounds wrong to me. I Have had another contractor tell me that since my chimney is within the house walls except for the attic and the few feet outside, i should not need a liner and need something else, possibly a new furnace. I went and checked out a book from the library and that confused me. I went to the local supply house and spoke with someone there, and they told me the following.....

    Based on the BTU output of my furnace and water heater, that I need a 4" liner OR 4" "B-Vent". Both of which should fit no problem in the 6" clay chimney tiles. (by the way the masonry for the chimney is completely straight all the way up).

    Now that being said, he told make sure I have the contractor use a 4" wye with the wye pointing down. Run the furnace into the straight portion and the water heater into the wye portion. I can use single wall inside but must use either the double wall OR the liner once the pipe heads into the chimney.

    After researching and reading, from what I can gather, when a new home is built today, they use "b-vent"" up and out the roof. When we have to retrofit a chimney, we essentially put a new construction flew inside the masonry box? Is that correct?

    How much should I expect to pay (fair price) for such a job?

    Is the supply house and my understanding correct or do I need to take more into consideration?
    \"A SHIP OF WAR IS THE BEST AMBASSADOR\"<br /><br />OLIVER CROMWELL

  • #2
    Where did you get a 10,000 btu 80% furnace from? I've never seen one. Most likely it's a 100,000 btu and you're just reading it wrong. If it's a 100,000 btu furnace and 40,000 btu water heater, depending on your chimney height, either a 5 or 5.5 inch chimney liner is required. Cost at the very least $500.

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    • #3
      my apologies, 100,000BTU, i fatfingered it.

      Ok now, what formula are you using to figure that out? The reason I ask is that it was put to me by someone who said 140,000 would be a 4" liner

      Thanks for the help
      \"A SHIP OF WAR IS THE BEST AMBASSADOR\"<br /><br />OLIVER CROMWELL

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      • #4
        I have charts but you can look here.

        http://www.hartandcooley.com/vent/si...ner_sizing.pdf

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        • #5
          Thank You. Two other contractors have come in and said I need 5" liner.

          Now here is the one last concern, when we bought the home it had a Goodwin GMP100-3 that was put in 1994 and has seen a lot of condensation back into it for the past several years. Lots of rust and such inside. Anyway if this thing goes out in the next few years, can I put a 90% efficent furnace in and use the 5" liner or will it have to be changed?

          Thanks for everything Bill

          Ed
          \"A SHIP OF WAR IS THE BEST AMBASSADOR\"<br /><br />OLIVER CROMWELL

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          • #6
            Liner should be ok for water heater alone, and the 90% furnaces vent through sidewall or roof with pvc.

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            • #7
              Thanks again for the help Bob.

              Would you believe I have had price quotes from everything 275.00 to over 1000.00 to do the job? One clown wanted to go with a 3" liner for the furnace and vent the water heater around it. Trew him out of the house.

              I hate dishonest contractors
              \"A SHIP OF WAR IS THE BEST AMBASSADOR\"<br /><br />OLIVER CROMWELL

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              • #8
                Space,

                Call the Attourney General and the BBB about the idiot that wanted to give you a 3 inch flue up the chimney for your furnace and send the water heater flue gasses up the outside of the flue pipe in the chimney. This is so wrong that the authorities need to know about this guy before he kills someone with carbon monoxide.

                He may not be dishonest but if not then he is very uninformed or stupid. All three are reasons to keep or get him out of the mechanical trades.

                Google up carbon monoxide poisioning and you will find that it is the leading cause of accidental deaths in the home in the USA. You might save a life.
                Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

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                • #9
                  plumber, you think that's bad, I replaced a furnace in a house and there was no hole in the flue tile. The furnace that I replaced was their second furnace.



                  This is also a nice touch.

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                  • #10
                    Bill,

                    Sometimes I think a few of these contractors should go to jail. They should get highly publicized trials and forfiet their equipment.

                    We are coming up on the heating season again and more people will die because of incompetent or crooked contractors. It will take a congressmans mom to die because of negligence before anything is done.
                    Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

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                    • #11
                      The SAD part about it is the imbecile that wanted to put in a 3" flew pipe is that they are one of the most reputable in town. I already contacted the building department. Problem is he did not give me a written estimate. So all I have is his WORD. I can still call and let those people know but with nothing in writing it will be hard to prove?
                      \"A SHIP OF WAR IS THE BEST AMBASSADOR\"<br /><br />OLIVER CROMWELL

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                      • #12
                        No, if its your word against theirs nothing will be proven. But it will register as a consumer complaint and others who check with the BBB or Attorney genreral before having work done will know there was a consumer complaint filed against them.

                        This holds for you as well Space, when ever you want to hire a contractor you can call the BBB or the attourney generals office to see if there have been complaints filed against the contractor. One or two complaints do not mean very much as no contractor in the world will please everyone and some people complain just to get things for free. But if there are several complaints against a contractor then I suggest taking a pass on whatever services they claim to offer.
                        Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

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                        • #13
                          One last question on the subject. It seeme like once I get the same info from several people another contractor has to throw a wrench into it. I had a contractor out that said my furnace required a "b" vent. Well no surprise there, as it says that right on the furnace itself. But my understanding of the "b" vent is that it is to be used when the exhaust has to be ran through walls and such, near things that are combustable? Venting through a masonry chimney with a clay insert should not require "b" vent and a standard chimney liner should serve me fine. Is that correct?
                          \"A SHIP OF WAR IS THE BEST AMBASSADOR\"<br /><br />OLIVER CROMWELL

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                          • #14
                            Now thats something I could not say without seeing everything in your new furnace's manual. If the manufacturer is calling for a particular type of vent they usually have a good reason for doing so. The furnace manufacturers do not make any money from the flue pipe installed on their products so they would not have a reason to reccomend something you would not need otherwise.

                            This is something you don't want to scrimp on. It really needs to be done right, you can afford to make a mistake with a cheap TV or a cheap faucet, but flue gases can be deadly and a failed furnace in the middle of a Chicago winter is no walk in the park either.

                            Space,without seeing what you have and the fact that your manufacturer is calling for B pipe my reccomendation would be to install it.
                            Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

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                            • #15
                              Well the furnace I was installed back in 1994, we bought the home in 2001. It has been explained to me 2 different ways. 1) is that the b vent is for direct venting and has to do with it's location relative to combustible materials. 2) that I need b vent (only one contractor has told me that), and he claims it will cost almost 1800.00 to have it installed.

                              I look around and most of my neighbors have a standard chimney liner. So I am assuming that for a retrofit, as long as the chimney is masonry/clay tile that it is non combustable and a standard liner will be ok.

                              I have read up on b pipe or b vent and it is a dual wall flew pipe and is most commonly seen in new construction today.

                              I am just making sure I have my ducks in a row before I hire someone to do the job.
                              \"A SHIP OF WAR IS THE BEST AMBASSADOR\"<br /><br />OLIVER CROMWELL

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