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  • #16
    Rick,

    The U-tube manometer is the type I am referring to when I mentioned manometers, The Dwyer Slack-Tube®, which is a U-tube manometer can be had for about $40, I've used them many times. They are accurate, but they don't make anyone more intelligent just because they are holding one in their hand. It wouldn't matter if it was a home-made U-tube manometer, a Dwyer Microtector® accurate to ±.00025"H2O, or a 0-0.25" H2O $2000.00 digital Heise gauge. I could have a Keithley (or any make) DMM or DSO in my hand but that doesn't make me an electrician or electronics technician or mean I know how to use any let alone all their functions. As you are aware its training and experience that makes the difference between a moron and a Mechanic.

    To all the high and mighty electricians who have come on board recently:

    I've had enough of wasting time feuding over the existence of the recently added electrical forum. You new members who think that it is a bad idea in my opinion are going about it the wrong way. You run in here and demand that the forum be removed and any post that offers advice about doing electrical work be removed. You say you have been monitoring this site for some time and are appalled at what you are reading. Why did it take so long for you to step in and right the terrible wrong that you perceive is going on here? What if someone had died because you failed to act in a timely manner? Would YOU be at fault? Could you be sued? After all, your vast and complete knowledge of everything electrical might have saved their life. At the very least you could have petitioned Josh or your holy master electrician/moderator to delete the post before someone got killed reading it? Have you written letters to the TV Networks telling them they need to get someone to review their DIY shows before they air? Have you called and demanded that they pull their dangerous and life threatening programming off the air, or written the FCC and complained about these TV Programs?. Get real would you.

    Why not join in and introduce yourself and logically offer your objections of fears concerning something you've see here? Don't you think we would listen if you WERE NOT SHOUTING or threatening to petition the IBEW to boycott Ridgid and picket their offices? Is that how you train and guide the Apprentices under your charge? If they make a mistake do you flog them with your conduit bender? Or do you show them the error of their ways and set them straight by training them in the correct way to perform a task? Nobody's asking you to train or instruct anyone or give out free advice here, in fact no one asked for you to be here at all.

    When the whole mole thread started I took it more as the initiator blowing off some steam due to his frustration with the pesky critters. I could sympathize because I have had to deal with them too. That was my mistake, because someone could misinterpret my suggestion to build a zapper out of PVC as for real. That part of my post was more of a joke, the suggestion to go read the information on the college website I provided the link to was for real. No one ever commented on if they followed through and read it, but it addressed and debunked many of the home remedies that were suggested. Since I felt I had a better knowledge of what kind of humor plumber might be comfortable with than say someone who just got here what 3 days ago, I made the comment about the PVC mole zapper, and his wacky idea of electrifying his yard was to me was just too far off the wall to be serious. I kept thinking of Bill Murray's feud with the gopher in Caddyshack

    It all boils down to this.

    If anyone is stupid enough to risk their or someone else's life on free advice they get on the internet, they deserve what they get.

    If you gave me advice on some electrical problem, as knowledgeable and as correct as that advice might be. I can tell you right not that I would probably not follow it until I had verified it with someone I know or researched it myself and was satisfied you were right. That's not distrust, that is being cautious (not to be confused with paranoid ).

    When someone in the oncoming lane puts on their left turn signal on, do you blindly trust them to follow through on that intention and turn left? Or do you wait a second or two until you are sure they are turning before you turn in front of them. If you are smart you wait, if you've ever ridden a motorcycle on the street you will definitely wait, because you know damn well people don't always do as they say.

    If you want to hang around and give the members of this forum the benefit of your experience on those subjects where you see fit to do so then please do and welcome aboard. For those topics that you think someone is risking their own or someone else's life or limb by all means please say so. But don't pop in her out of the blue demanding that Ridgid appoint a master electrician to monitor all the posts and censor those that YOU or some other 'qualified' person feels is not appropriate.

    I try not to offer advice on topics where I think the person asking is not capable of performing the work themselves (some here may not agree with that ). And when I do if I feel that it would be better handled by a PRO I say so. If they don't like my response no biggie, I'm not gonna cry to Josh or someone at Ridgid about it because someone is doing my work. I also try to remember to qualify my suggestions as just that. In the same way that everyone is trying analyze the cause of the incident in the link to the electrical story posted earlier, its all being done remotely. We only have the information that is given to us in the poster's question to act upon. We can't fully understand the whats and whys unless we are there to see the evidence first-hand, so any conclusions that are arrived at are mostly guesstimation.

    Please stay and become contributors to the various forums and make some new friends. I think you will find that for the most part this is a good bunch of guys with level heads. We're not out to wage war on any particular trade. there are people here from both sides of the fence, union/non-union, but for the most part it has not gotten in the way of helping each other where possible. There is a mix of self-employed Pros, small and mid-sized Contractors, Journeymen, Apprentices, and many DIYers and handyman types and just plain hobbyists among the various forum members, and there is nothing wrong with that from where I sit. If you have a problem with it, please go away.
    "When we build let us think we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work that our descendants will thank us for, and let us think, as we lay stone upon stone, that a time is to come when these stones will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, "See! This our fathers did for us."
    John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

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    • #17
      well put BOB D
      Charlie

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      • #18
        how to make a U tube manometer
        (note: I am jsut posting for information not indorsing any web site or idea).

        http://www.rverscorner.com/articles/manometer.html

        http://www.komar.org/faq/manometer/
        Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
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        • #19
          now we talk about liability

          how about that web site that shows that even a kid can check gas pressure
          Charlie

          My seek the peek fundraiser page
          http://observatory.mountwashington.o...nal&fr_id=1040


          http://www.mountwashington.org/weather/conditions.php

          new work pictures 12/09
          http://public.fotki.com/hvachawk/

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          • #20
            BOB D You expressed my sentiments exactly!! Very well put. Thanks. Jim

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            • #21
              I do many do-it-yourselfer projects too. LP is dangerous because its heavier than air. You can have a build up and explosion similar to gasoline vapors. The burner orifice is smaller than natural gas but pressure is higher to push the LP into the burner (again because its heavier than air). You can buy a 0-16" water column gauge cheap. (Its just a glass tube and a hose you put water in) Talk to a local HVAC supplier. You want to check & adjust the pressure at the burner when its burning. If the pressure drops, your supply pipe is too small. Since you're a carpenter, ask around on the jobsite for some help. Hopefully you can find a HVAC tech to help you out. Natural gas is dangerous but I say LP is very dangerous.
              Best, Dennis.............

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Dennis/Ohio
                I do many do-it-yourselfer projects too. LP is dangerous because its heavier than air.
                Natural gas is dangerous but I say LP is very dangerous.
                Best, Dennis.............
                so dangerous that my liability insurance co. excludes coverage on lp gas.

                rick.
                phoebe it is

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Dennis/Ohio
                  The burner orifice is smaller than natural gas but pressure is higher
                  That is confusing. It's seems like I've heard that. But in talking about measuring the pressure I found propane pressure is 1/10th that of natural gas, at least that was what I got out of our discussion here.

                  I changed the flex lines from 3/8 to 5/8 at the supply end and 3/8 to 1/2 at the furnace.

                  That and the work on the vent pipe seems to have done the trick.


                  I have a friend that uses a wood stove because she doesn't want propane and there's no nat gas available. She had a friend whose house was blown up by propane etc. I've never known anyone that has had anything like that happen.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Tacman7

                    That is confusing. It's seems like I've heard that. But in talking about measuring the pressure I found propane pressure is 1/10th that of natural gas, at least that was what I got out of our discussion here.
                    You may want to pick up a manometer and check your pressures for your self. Propane should have a delivery pressure of around 10 psig while natural gas is .25 psig. Then of course you have a second regulator at the appliance and you will need to check with the manufacturer for that pressure.

                    Mark
                    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ToUtahNow
                      You may want to pick up a manometer and check your pressures for your self. Propane should have a delivery pressure of around 10 psig while natural gas is .25 psig. Then of course you have a second regulator at the appliance and you will need to check with the manufacturer for that pressure.

                      Mark
                      I was thinking that natural gas was about 5psi for some reason. So after some research I'm finding natural gas is about 1/4 psi and the pressure the manufacture is calling for propane for this heater is about 1/2 psi(10.5-11W.C.) so that would be about twice the pressure of Natural Gas.

                      They give you smaller jets with most appliances so you can convert them to propane.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Tacman7
                        I bought and installed a Williams Gravity Direct Vent LP Wall Furnace from HD for myself.

                        It works fine until the wind gets pretty gusty. The pilot doesn't go out when it's just the pilot going. When the heaters going the wind will make the pilot go out then the heater shuts down. I tried turning the pilot up but I can't tell a difference after adjustment. I'm experimenting with a baffle for the vent cap and I played with restricting the air intake some, with limited results.

                        Does it sound like there is something wrong with the heater that it only goes out when it's running not when it's sitting with the pilot on?

                        Any thoughts suggestions appreciated.

                        Thanks

                        Not saying this is what you need, check and follow all the great advice you've been given so far by the other members here. Just wanted to throw in, that for jobs where keeping a pilot lit on some furnaces (Natural Gas) instead of messing around with it I will at times instead install a conversion kit to get rid of the thermocouple and pilot and switch over to a hot surface ignitor. No more problems.

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