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  • How to keep vertical lines plumb & square

    Anyone have any tips on keeping vertical lines with propress fittings plumb and square?

  • #2
    Re: How to keep vertical lines plumb & square

    actually the nice thing is that with proper hangers and support, it should be no different than soldered fittings.

    you could actually tweek the fitting after crimping to realign if necessary. if you move it more than 2 degrees, just recrimp.

    now if you were to silver braze copper, then you have issues keeping the line straight.

    rick.
    phoebe it is

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: How to keep vertical lines plumb & square

      Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
      now if you were to silver braze copper, then you have issues keeping the line straight.
      rick.
      Rick, could you explain further?
      Buy cheap, buy twice.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: How to keep vertical lines plumb & square

        when you braze, you heat the copper to a cherry red state, this then anneals the tubing and it will move. making a brazed installation look as good as a soldered installation is dam near impossible.

        with propress there is no heat and therefore no warping. there is a chance of alignment issues if you crimp when the pipe is not properly aligned.

        same thing if you tighten up no hub bands when the pipe is not square to the next piece or fitting.

        no hub you can loosen and then realign. propress you can tweak and if need be re-crimp. soldered and brazed fittings are a done deal

        the finished job will look only as good as the installers craftsmanship.

        rick.
        phoebe it is

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: How to keep vertical lines plumb & square

          Never brazed, hard copper. Only soft. I use oxy acetylene when brazing, it's super fast. I never noticed distortion. Where in plumbing would you need to braze hard copper?
          Buy cheap, buy twice.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: How to keep vertical lines plumb & square

            ben, when i was using the t-drill it all had to be brazed.

            6'' copper was the largest and also very common for the projects i worked on.

            also med gas has to be brazed 100% with purge nitrogen.

            rick.
            phoebe it is

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: How to keep vertical lines plumb & square

              Never done t-drill. Little tip to share with you on purging w/ nitrogen. Keep in mind this is for ac but you'll get the idea. I attach my nitrogen hose to 1 service valve. On the other service valve, I'll put a ballon on it w/ a tiny slit in it. I add nitrogen till the ballon stays up. This shows you have positive flow. They say you need 2 lbs of nitrogen while brazing. I can't see 2 lbs on my regulator. Doing it this way accomplishes the same thing, your bottle will last a loong time, and you won't get any blowouts from too much nitrogen.
              Buy cheap, buy twice.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: How to keep vertical lines plumb & square

                Originally posted by mechga View Post
                Anyone have any tips on keeping vertical lines with propress fittings plumb and square?
                On copper lines use copper coated riser clamps sometimes called pipe rests.

                The reason for copper or copper coated is to prevent electrolytic action between ferrous and non ferrous metals

                RE: brazing and distortion

                If one took the AWS medical gas piping brazing course they may have read about the flux being the key to having a perfect joint with little or no distortion or discoloration. THE CDA puts out several publications regarding the importance of reading "flux" characteristics

                The flux I use comes in a powder form that you mix with water and then make it into a pasty form and apply to the inside of the fitting and out side the piping (some folks cover the entire fitting with it to protect it from oxidation)

                There are some self fluxing flat rods that are used for copper to copper but they contain less then 15% silver and many folks have a problem with controlling the flame as over heating does occur

                The flux is the key as you heat the pipe first then the joint you will notice the pasty flux starts to turn into a powdery substance this lets you know that your @ 212 Deg F as now the water boiled off as you continue to heat the fitting playing the feather of the neutral flame you will see the flux become a liquid again and it looks calm not changing state at this point you know that the temperature is between 1,200 -1,500 DEG F and your brazing alloy should melt and become liquidness at this point and you can star adding filler metal.

                Considering most silver high temperature brazing alloys melt at 1,200 and copper melts at 1,981 DEG F you can braze a great looking distortion free joint by just playing the flame and watch the flux.

                Since the early 1970's they have swirl jet tips that take the oxygen out of the air mix it with acetylene and you have a flame capable of reaching 4,800 deg F MORE THEN ENOUGH to braze a decent copper joint and yet because your not using an oxyacetylene flame (5,800 deg) and the swirl jet has a great secondary flame plus an easy feather flame to use one can make outstanding joints capable of having a tensile strength of 87,000 PSI and the configuration of the flame makes it a lot easier to braze /solder piping over 4" diameter with out burning the heck out of it

                The idea of making a metal CHERRY red is a great way to fail a test given for medical piping brazing as it is not necessary and weakens the copper

                Today wrought copper is not like the old Stanly G Flagg flow fittings that used TP copper and a heavy brass fitting (used on ships) and popular during the 60s and 70's or water lines (TP = thread less copper same outside diameter as pipe)

                If someone has to get it so hot then possibly they should consider using a lower temperature/ higher silver content brazing rod so they can get a better wetting action for capillary attraction.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: How to keep vertical lines plumb & square

                  We braze without flux using either the turbo-torch on a B-tank (smaller pipe to 2 1/2") or oxy-acetylene...
                  We get the pipe and fittings dull red and go for it - good wetting action, lots of penetration and solid joints...(still some annealing, but with proper supporting it is not a factor)
                  We use Silvaloy brazing rod...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: How to keep vertical lines plumb & square

                    Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
                    Never brazed, hard copper. Only soft. I use oxy acetylene when brazing, it's super fast. I never noticed distortion. Where in plumbing would you need to braze hard copper?

                    Same here finally we agree about no distortion when brazing

                    "Plumbers" used brazing in NYC on type L copper in the 1970s for domestic water lines for any home over 3 stories high or any commercial building regardless of height then they went to 95 -5 Tin antimony then silver bearing low temperature alloys (cant say solder as solder refers to lead but many still call it soft soldering)

                    We still braze copper lines for medical gases and I braze on buildings exceeding 40 stories high just for my own peace of mind.

                    We also braze split copper as the braze is stronger then the base metal and on high pressure pumping systems especially where vibration may be present.

                    I also braze RED Brass piping and once in a great while yellow brass

                    One job called for using schedule 40 RED BRASS piping with brazed fittings as the building owner knew that threaded piping was only rated for 125# and he was concerned as the building was 60 stories high and the hot water piping was going to have all kinds of swing joints for expansion and contraction

                    I do not know if you ever came in contact with ship board (SEA BEE) piping where we used a heavy brass fitting with the silver ring already installed and one had to remove the ring clean it place the alloy back in the groove flux it then use oxyacetylene and no other filler rod was allowed or available and as you heated the fitting you tried to pull the filler out of the fitting and you looked for a silver ring all around the joint which proved you made a leak proof joint.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: How to keep vertical lines plumb & square

                      Originally posted by markts30 View Post
                      We braze without flux using either the turbo-torch on a B-tank (smaller pipe to 2 1/2") or oxy-acetylene...
                      We get the pipe and fittings dull red and go for it - good wetting action, lots of penetration and solid joints...(still some annealing, but with proper supporting it is not a factor)
                      We use Silvaloy brazing rod...
                      People think hotter the better and the B tank is really an under estimated tool, the Swirl Jet (union Carbide) came out with in the 70's them later the Turbo torch BUT in a closed area the sound can be deafening.

                      The Turbo is great even the smaller tip can be used (takes time) to braze 4"but your doing it in smaller sections of course and the Silaloy does a decent job.

                      If distortion i a concern I told a class to use a heat sink (wet rag will do) on either side of the joint so the heat stays closer to the business area or they could buy heat block.

                      As for NH if the job pays enough I use the couplings with the 80 in pound torque or MJ couplings these things do not distort at all, of course one could go nuts and use the 125 pound NH coupling

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: How to keep vertical lines plumb & square

                        got in wrong thread
                        Last edited by BHD; 09-16-2007, 07:11 PM. Reason: got in wrong thread
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                        • #13
                          Re: How to keep vertical lines plumb & square

                          Originally posted by Sylvan Tieger View Post
                          People think hotter the better and the B tank is really an under estimated tool, the Swirl Jet (union Carbide) came out with in the 70's them later the Turbo torch BUT in a closed area the sound can be deafening.

                          The Turbo is great even the smaller tip can be used (takes time) to braze 4"but your doing it in smaller sections of course and the Silaloy does a decent job.

                          If distortion i a concern I told a class to use a heat sink (wet rag will do) on either side of the joint so the heat stays closer to the business area or they could buy heat block.

                          As for NH if the job pays enough I use the couplings with the 80 in pound torque or MJ couplings these things do not distort at all, of course one could go nuts and use the 125 pound NH coupling
                          So what you say because you dont get the fitting to a uniform temperature to allow for full penetration only the outside of the socket gets capped with minimal penetration into it.Is this what you are saying.

                          I have installed hundreds of feet of large size hard copper that was required to be silver brazed.I use air acetyline with a T-11 tip above 1"through 2" pipe size different tips for larger.I have done this with plumbers that are certified in medical gas and have had my work approved of by them and the inspectors on my multiple commercial and residential projects.

                          This is the first I have heard about all this not heating up the fitting thing.

                          I am not certified in med gas,my bad.Know a few people who are.

                          So now I have a research project.

                          p.s. see how easy this is to read.Our readers like it this way.

                          Please stop trying to impress people with techy flip flop,bouncing around trying to make things appear complicated.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: How to keep vertical lines plumb & square

                            Adam,

                            I would not research too hard as I am sure you already know the limitations of a Turbo Torch tip for brazing.

                            Mark
                            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: How to keep vertical lines plumb & square

                              once again, slyvan is clueless.

                              a silver brazed joint requires approx. 25% penetration of socket depth for an acceptable joint.

                              a soft soldered joint requires 100% to be proper.

                              a t-drill joint is only approx. 5/16'' deep. this requires 100% penetration.


                              the reason med gas requires 100% penetration is to prevent any germs, bacteria from breeding in a partially filled/ brazed joint.

                              the melting temperature of 15% silver requires a large enough torch to properly heat the fitting. the fitting is what melts the rod, not the flame of the torch.

                              i've done 1000's of 6'' joints with oxy/acy. if you don't have the heat, the copper will absorb the heat and the rod will not flow. capillary action is what sucks the rod into the joint.

                              the copper will get annealed in the heating process.

                              rick.

                              slyvan, is there anything you can post that i don't have to correct you you would think with all the money you make, you could buy better books and go back to school.

                              go back to your own site and i'll leave you be

                              ps. take your circus clowns with you.
                              phoebe it is

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