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  • #16
    Re: bought a new #1 tool

    Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
    I have no idea why you seem to always take things to a personal affront or are just determined to "win" a discussion. I really could care less if your ten times faster at soldering vs. ProPressing. I can already do all the numbers that you do and know the time savings, cost of fittings, manufacturers, test data. It's a no brainer for doing large jobs where the labor would kill you. But if you are a 1 to 2 man shop there is alot more to think about.

    I dare say your ProPress tool has not generated one dime of business for you. As you said, you don't turn down work. You would have done the job anyway. The jobs you got that other wouldn't do are not necessarily due to your ProPress. You would have done them anyway.

    You answered all questions in your first two sentences for me. Don't take it personally. I don't want to have a footrace with you either.

    J.C.
    j.c. the point is, if i bid a job replacing ball valves in a sub terranian garage against someone who solders them in. i win hands down. my price is lower, my time the water is off to the people is less too.

    so if i have a tool that makes the job easier, faster and less expensive overall, why would someone want to pay more and take longer and be inconvenienced ?

    the point is, this is not anything new. the usa has had propress since 2000 and europe for close to 25 years.

    the discussion was pricing. it takes money to make money. we are not supplying labor only. we are suppling a finished product.

    if you can compete in all of the above and still get the job, you don't need a propress. but i can tell you this, if you bid the same job against me and my propress, you'll never come in at a better price, less time or less inconvenience to the owners.

    you'll see this as you have to 1 day compete with a company that has a propress for a contract type job.

    next time when you're at a supply house that carries viega propress fittings. why not compare a 1/2'' 90 to a solder 90 and see what is a better quality fitting. in fact, compare any fitting to a soldered fitting and see the difference.

    i don't know about your area, but i do know who is buying propress out here. 1 of the largest, best known t/i shops switched to propress years ago.

    and yes, i get jobs referred to me from both the supply house and the other plumbers that know, i can do it.

    rick.

    by the way, is propress approved where you work?
    phoebe it is

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: bought a new #1 tool

      availability is the problem here. I like the idea crimping while water's running. Also using the tool for Pexpress. Tool, plus two sets of jaws, pricey.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: bought a new #1 tool

        Rick: I understand the usefullness of the propress my question in this case is faster better for the customer?

        Is the propress joint a better joint? Will it stand the test of time? Is the propress joint as mechanically strong / chemical resistant / ect ect...

        I guess we have to ask what better is in relation to who it is being applied to... Us as plumbers or the customer.

        Do I charge the customer a premium for an inferior joint do I charge them the same as a soldered joint? I'm I doing my customer a disservice by selling them on this technology or at least through omission letting them think it is the same quality as a soldered joint?

        It looks pretty and is a great time saver and is very usefull in emergency situations..... So is a sharkbite, though that does not make them better IMO..

        Your thoughts?

        Okie

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: bought a new #1 tool

          I know you like the last word Rick but face it, you have lost the debate.
          The only point you can make is a invalid one about making big money and impressing the customer. I could do the same thing by doubling my rates and getting my teeth whitened. That dog an pony show is over.

          The cost of the tool itself is still not worth 2,400.00. Sell the tool at a fair price and I will buy it.

          I wish Ridgid employees were more active on the board. Maybe they could tell me how they came about the retail price.
          Anyone can tear a man down, few can build one up.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: bought a new #1 tool

            Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
            j.c. the point is, if i bid a job replacing ball valves in a sub terranian garage against someone who solders them in. i win hands down. my price is lower, my time the water is off to the people is less too.

            so if i have a tool that makes the job easier, faster and less expensive overall, why would someone want to pay more and take longer and be inconvenienced ?

            the point is, this is not anything new. the usa has had propress since 2000 and europe for close to 25 years.

            the discussion was pricing. it takes money to make money. we are not supplying labor only. we are suppling a finished product.

            if you can compete in all of the above and still get the job, you don't need a propress. but i can tell you this, if you bid the same job against me and my propress, you'll never come in at a better price, less time or less inconvenience to the owners.

            you'll see this as you have to 1 day compete with a company that has a propress for a contract type job.

            next time when you're at a supply house that carries viega propress fittings. why not compare a 1/2'' 90 to a solder 90 and see what is a better quality fitting. in fact, compare any fitting to a soldered fitting and see the difference.

            i don't know about your area, but i do know who is buying propress out here. 1 of the largest, best known t/i shops switched to propress years ago.

            and yes, i get jobs referred to me from both the supply house and the other plumbers that know, i can do it.

            rick.

            by the way, is propress approved where you work?
            I think I have mentioned 3 or more times that it is NOT approved here and even recently in response to one of the threads you started just a couple of days ago. Why would you even ask?

            I am not totally anti press. One of the reasons I think you like it so much is that you can keep it busy in your area. Here, I haven't had the need for it.

            There are many of us that might see a day when this technology could dramatically decrease our calls where we are. That I don't like even though I'd like to think I embrace technology and stay ahead of the game. Zig and zag as the industry does so.

            Pricewise it does seem out of range for the 1 to 2 man shop. Fortunately, the best thing for any consumer is competition. Nibco makes a similar tool. Rothenberger makes a similar tool. Others will come and quality will equalize.

            Then the price will continue to fall. Maybe even to the point where every homeowner will have one hanging beside a shovel in the shed.

            J.C.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: bought a new #1 tool

              To a certain extent Ridgid is doing us a favor with the current price point.


              We as professionals should have tools that allow us to work faster than joe homeowner.

              I as a professional will pay for that technology and expect the pricepoint to keep me competitive by preventing everyone from having it.

              I remember it was the same thing with PEX tools years ago... I don't see any of us squacking about paying $100 for a 1/2" pex tool. We pay it because at the end of the day we make our $$$ with it...

              Even if the propress was $10000 dollars, If you have the work to justify it or believe that with it you can increase your volume to justify the purchase and you incorporate it into your daily business ( and your area allows it) it would pay for itself just as the pex tools have...

              I hope the price stays high enough to keep Home Despot away for as long as possible...

              okie

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: bought a new #1 tool

                Originally posted by Tyman View Post
                I know you like the last word Rick but face it, you have lost the debate.
                The only point you can make is a invalid one about making big money and impressing the customer. I could do the same thing by doubling my rates and getting my teeth whitened. That dog an pony show is over.

                The cost of the tool itself is still not worth 2,400.00. Sell the tool at a fair price and I will buy it.

                I wish Ridgid employees were more active on the board. Maybe they could tell me how they came about the retail price.
                it's funny that you think i lost the debate. all you're doing is complaining about the price and i'm giving real facts.

                the fact is, new technology cost money. do you have any idea what it cost to ridgid just to have an authorized service center set up to work on this tool? between the repair parts and the computerized test station that is specific to the tools service and repair.

                do you really think they will lower the price so that everyone who wants one can buy one?

                please price out the fittings and then complain to all the manufactures that supply the fittings. they are all within 10% of each other.

                while your at it, please tell me why water heaters have gone up over 300% of what i use to pay 5 years ago. along with copper tubing and fittings.

                the less people that have this technology, the more valuable it is for us that have it. anybody that has invested in new technology will tell you, that the time to profit for it is when others don't have it. look at what has happened to sewer inspections, now that more and more people have this equipment. same holds true to the price of trenchless and relining. with more competition, the price of this specialty service will go down. the higher it is for others to get into, the less the competition will be.

                $2400 is a great price for a 330 with jaws. i know what i paid for a 320, 4 years ago. so you're either getting a great price now, or i got taken then.

                a buddy of mine held off for years buying one and now that he has one, he wants another one.

                jump on i while the getting is good and before the price you were quoted goes up. you might be surprised that 2400 is a killer deal.

                rick.
                phoebe it is

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: bought a new #1 tool

                  i just found a good price on the tool and jaws 1/2''-2''.

                  here is the link.

                  http://www.toolup.com/ridgid/27923.html

                  please don't complain about the extra $1961. for the 2.5''- 4'' jaws.

                  the ones that had a chance to visit the ridgid factory got to see what goes into every single jaw they sell.

                  why not just buy a used one or an older model (400, 320) to get started with? but before you dive in, you better get the price of fittings. the fitting prices will have you writing more post

                  like i said before, there are only a handful of guys at each of my 4 supply houses that actually buy this stuff. so don't feel like you're missing out. 99% of us are missing out

                  rick.
                  phoebe it is

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: bought a new #1 tool

                    Starting a 4 story hotel Monday. The Propress is in contention with the T-drill. Install time is critical as there's myself and my 1st yr. apprentice son. Either I chose will more than likely get paid for by the job.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: bought a new #1 tool

                      Rick, if real facts is telling me how much money I will make, and how I will get jobs just by owning one then your are missing my point as I have stated numerous times.

                      Rick, prices are way out of control. When is enough money, enough? People always associate plumbers with "expensive". The biggest problem isn't our rates, it the cost of TOOLS and materials.

                      When I re-plumbed our house my wife was shocked at the material cost. People have no idea what materials cost, let alone run a honest business. Sure a propress would make my job a little easier but in the end, the customer is going to pay more. Is that what you really want? People go through great extremes to avoid plumbers already.

                      You can point out the the problem of having water in the line but any plumber worth his salt can handle a residential home with water that won't shut off or stop.

                      If I did a large amount of commercial work, I would have a propress without a doubt.

                      Do you think companies are doing you a favor by charging 100.00+ for a set of crimper's or is it just greed?

                      I don't buy into the idea of keeping the prices high to keep homeowners out. While that sounds plausible I seriously doubt that was factored in to get the final retail price. Even if they sold it for 1600.00 homeowners would not buy one.
                      Anyone can tear a man down, few can build one up.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: bought a new #1 tool

                        ty, chill out dude!!!!----the press is worth every dime--you dont understand b/c its never bailed you out of a nightmare--ever have a watermain break on a saturday in a meterpit on a 3" bypass???? i have ----we just got hammered with monsoon and water was coming in fast as pump was taking it out----guesss what got me out and paid in 2 hours? yep propress------when it gets you out of this kinda jam u will appreciate it like we do----and try to tell me my 3 hr bill would be cheaper than your atleast 12 hr bill?????? you never would get the water out to solder and this pit was 9 ft deep---i climbed in 2 x----once to measure and remove old broken bypass and second to thread mip's into flanges and press prebuilt manifold

                        i just paid 2675 for my 330b---and not a complaint---this tool will make you busy and lots of money---look at the labor savings and the aggravation i was saved on my weekend off---i too have a propress charge on my bills--no complaints

                        ty---wait till you can cut a 3/4 water main live in a basement and press a valve on before the city can show up to dig up the broken curb valve---i have done it with 55 psi fully on----you think the homeowner complained about the 75 charge for pressing-----no--and i was done under 1 hr

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: bought a new #1 tool

                          Originally posted by Tyman View Post
                          Rick, if real facts is telling me how much money I will make, and how I will get jobs just by owning one then your are missing my point as I have stated numerous times.

                          Rick, prices are way out of control. When is enough money, enough? People always associate plumbers with "expensive". The biggest problem isn't our rates, it the cost of TOOLS and materials.

                          When I re-plumbed our house my wife was shocked at the material cost. People have no idea what materials cost, let alone run a honest business. Sure a propress would make my job a little easier but in the end, the customer is going to pay more. Is that what you really want? People go through great extremes to avoid plumbers already.

                          You can point out the the problem of having water in the line but any plumber worth his salt can handle a residential home with water that won't shut off or stop.

                          If I did a large amount of commercial work, I would have a propress without a doubt.

                          Do you think companies are doing you a favor by charging 100.00+ for a set of crimper's or is it just greed?

                          I don't buy into the idea of keeping the prices high to keep homeowners out. While that sounds plausible I seriously doubt that was factored in to get the final retail price. Even if they sold it for 1600.00 homeowners would not buy one.
                          ty, very few people, have the selection of specialty tools i have. if all you do is residential service, then you probably don't see the need for some of these specialty tools.

                          if you ever do commercial/ industrial, you will find that shutting off the water is not an option. shutting off water in some of these places is like shutting off the power to building full of employees.

                          8-10 years ago i was recommended to freeze 10 lines on a brand new 100 million+ office complex. the original plumber had stubbed out 3/4'' water lines to the patios for the landscaper to connect to. problem was, he didn't install shut off valves. so for the cost of 10- 3/4'' ball valves, they ended up hiring me to do it for them.

                          i really wish i had propress at the time to do this. nothing like taking a torch to a frozen line and hoping that you don't melt it or have a leak. there is no going back to re-solder a dripping line. it wont freeze if it's dripping.

                          the problem isn't the $2400. the problem is you don't do the work that warrants the tool investment. if you did, you would already have the tool.

                          even a seesnake micro ($200.) is not for everyone.

                          rick.
                          phoebe it is

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: bought a new #1 tool

                            There is a whole lot more to factor into the price of a tool than the cost of the materials and labor to produce them. In the case of the ProPress I would imagine there was a lot of R&D work to develop the system and then get all of the required approvals from all of the Code Officials. Based on the cost of the tool it is obviously not meant for everyone. A plumber who only does residential service work in 1/2" through 1" would have a hard time justifying the expense. However, a plumber who does commercial and industrial work or works with critical systems the ProPress is a no-brainer.

                            I can't tell you how many times I have bought tools thinking the price would never justify the need only to buy a couple more after I had used them for a while.

                            Mark
                            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: bought a new #1 tool

                              If I was a plumber I would buy one in a second no questions asked. The amount of time and agrivation saved will pay for the unit in no time. Could I work with out my wire feeder and burn sticks all day, sure, but I can do the same job in 1/2 to 1/3 the time with the $2000 worth of equipment.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: bought a new #1 tool

                                Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                                ty, very few people, have the selection of specialty tools i have. if all you do is residential service, then you probably don't see the need for some of these specialty tools.

                                if you ever do commercial/ industrial, you will find that shutting off the water is not an option. shutting off water in some of these places is like shutting off the power to building full of employees.

                                8-10 years ago i was recommended to freeze 10 lines on a brand new 100 million+ office complex. the original plumber had stubbed out 3/4'' water lines to the patios for the landscaper to connect to. problem was, he didn't install shut off valves. so for the cost of 10- 3/4'' ball valves, they ended up hiring me to do it for them.

                                i really wish i had propress at the time to do this. nothing like taking a torch to a frozen line and hoping that you don't melt it or have a leak. there is no going back to re-solder a dripping line. it wont freeze if it's dripping.

                                the problem isn't the $2400. the problem is you don't do the work that warrants the tool investment. if you did, you would already have the tool.

                                even a seesnake micro ($200.) is not for everyone.

                                rick.
                                This DOES speak to me with more logic. I need ROI (return on investment) on anything purchased for business. Press tool in commercial installation & repair-good/fast ROI. Press tool in residential installation & repair-poor/slow ROI and probably just unnecessary.

                                Shutting an occupied building down is a PIA. A couple of months back I had to do it. I told the facilities manager and the person just below him 3 times over a 45 minute period that this would have to be done and to send out a mass email and announcement.

                                I shut the place down and begin a draindown. About 10 minutes later it comes over the intercom, "The water will be shut down in the building for the next hour." They never alerted anyone. So then the facilities manager comes around wanting to know when the water will be back on as people need to use the facilities. Why do they think I give them 3 warnings over a 45 minute period?

                                It takes FOREVER to draindown alot of buildings to properly solder & make changes. A press tool would be valuable here to minimize anyones downtime. Think about a medical facility where there can be NO turning off of the water and the original contractor puts in the least amount of shutoffs to get the bid. Seen it. And NOONE knows where the ones they put in even are!

                                I know for myself I need ROI and no "dead" equipment. Every tool should not collect dust, be used, and be billed for often.

                                J.C.
                                Last edited by BobsPlumbing; 10-12-2008, 05:28 PM.

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