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Copper joints t-drill & roll grooving

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  • #16
    Re: Copper joints t-drill & roll grooving

    at 1 point we use to use 15% silver. when the bill came for the 50# box, the owner had a cow

    the higher silver content flows better, but with experience, lower silver is no problem.

    rick.
    phoebe it is

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    • #17
      Re: Copper joints t-drill & roll grooving

      this was for water mains
      i have seen a plumber use the plated hangers as temporary hanger until the insulation was put on ,then they changed them with bigger ones to go over the insulation .

      Rick why don't you go back and give them a pro press demo
      Charlie

      My seek the peek fundraiser page
      http://observatory.mountwashington.o...nal&fr_id=1040


      http://www.mountwashington.org/weather/conditions.php

      new work pictures 12/09
      http://public.fotki.com/hvachawk/

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      • #18
        Re: Copper joints t-drill & roll grooving

        The galv or copper couplings will work fine for the application. Only thing is it looks a little odd. The copper couplings in the picture are not copper at all. They are steel housings painted a copper color to match the piping. Since the medium in the pipe never touches the steel housings of the couplings (flows across gasket that make the seal) it never has the opportunity to flow across two different types of metals which produces galvanic corrosion. I have installed this Vic copper system in many schools, casino's, hospitals, etc with no problems up to 8". As usual Vic also has no torq repuirements as well. Just metal to metal and you have a good joint.

        To answer another question above roll grooving is the preffered method in the field since the mid 70's and pipe up to 24" is routinely roll grooved on the shop tools that Vic sells. The new Vic 14" thru 24" coupling is now a 2 piece design with a higher pressure rating (250psi original now 350psi) with a larger groove. You can use the old tools to make this groove but you would need a new lower and upper roll set for the AGS (Adanced groov system).

        Cut grooving is typically used in ductile in applications with cement, rubber, or glass lined material, etc... that you could not roll groove without cracking or breaking.

        Regards,

        Dave

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        • #19
          Re: Copper joints t-drill & roll grooving

          Cut grooving was used extensively in the 50's to the 70's in fire protection (probably earlier and for sure later). A "in air" type of roll groover didn't show up till the late 80's so the only thing you could do is cut groove as long as it was sch. 40 pipe, other than that if it was sch. 10 you had to remove the pipe and groove in a machine. I have heard some of the old heads say they have roll grooved pipe with a machine groover in the air. At one time I had a set of victaulic cut groovers for steel pipe, 2" to 8".

          Cut grooving is superior to roll grooving in a dry system (but not much sch 40 pipe is run for mains now days) since the inside of the pipe is left smooth and does not have the "hump" of the roll groove to hold the small amount of water to cause the inside of the piping to start premature corrosion. NFPA says that the roll grooves must be accounted for in the hydraulic calculations, approx. 1' of pipe per roll groove.

          I have never run any glass or rubber lined piping, but have run miles of ductile iron cement lined water mains. Slip jpint, mechanical joint, and flanged. One brand of fire hydrant uses a cut groove with a wire snap ring to hold the flange in place, can't remember if it is Clow or American Darling. Factory made flanged ductile iron pipe has threaded flanges on them. Even for the lining I don't think you could roll groove ductile, it is pretty hard, really kind of brittle.

          That sure is some big pipe you are running, what procees is this for and what kind of piping?

          G3

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          • #20
            Re: Copper joints t-drill & roll grooving

            I helped do a meat packing plant and all of the AIR lines and All water lines above 4" were victaulic. I was wondering what the rolled copper joints were and now i know. anyways This was the first time i done this type to system and it wasn't bad at all. I put in LOTS of it not sure exactly how much but took about 6 weeks to get it done. Anyways NOT ONE LEAK. Not bad. Just make sure to use the lube and i never had a problem.

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            • #21
              Re: Copper joints t-drill & roll grooving

              Using the lube on the inside lips of the gasket and on the inside of the coupling is a must. Otherwise you take a chance of pinching the rubber and causing a leak. Some of the rubbers come pre-lubed from the factory but I always still lube them by hand.

              G3

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              • #22
                Re: Copper joints t-drill & roll grooving

                roll grooving is a very good way to join pipe but its only good for pressures up to 200 psi anything over 200 i would recommend flanged fittings

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                • #23
                  Re: Copper joints t-drill & roll grooving

                  the only bad thing about vic lube is after a couple of years vic lube turns in to glue and if you ever have to take it apart after its been together for a while it is very difficult to remove the rubber from the pipe and the coupling.dont use lube just when ever your putting the coupling together give it a twisted and then twist it back we call that setting the rubber .

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                  • #24
                    Re: Copper joints t-drill & roll grooving

                    Never had them set in like glue, yeah maybe stick a little but nothing a little tap would not jar loose. Somtimes it is nice to have the rubber kind of stuck to the pipe to hold any water in, gives you time to get a bucket. Ever seen rubbers greased with a petrolium type grease after 10 plus years? all of the elastic is gone out of them and will leak like a seive. How about a rubber greased with pipe dope? talk about stuck like glue.

                    If in a bind liquid hand soap, veg. shortening, lard or even electricians wire lube wooks good.

                    I do twist the coupling halves on the rubber to set it, but with out some lube it is a good ghance for a pinched rubber, now you are going back to make repairs.

                    G3

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                    • #25
                      Re: Copper joints t-drill & roll grooving

                      Years ago I worked for an hvac company on A large Four Seasons Hotel in Carlsbad, Ca. Installing copper and black victalic piping for a hydronic heating and cooling system, and the plumbing contractor was installing large bore type M copper 3' and up with IPS size vic clamps. They had a machine that belled out the pipe slightly before the groove was pressed in. I could not see this system lasting very long without leaking. This stuff was run in block chases that would not be accessable after the building was completed.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Copper joints t-drill & roll grooving

                        wow! type M in a commercial building???

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                        • #27
                          Re: Copper joints t-drill & roll grooving

                          im grooving 2- 6" stainless steel 316 in a chem plant right now--over 350 ft of pipe. my fittings are groovelock and are rated to 600 psi. grooving is nice, but the next 300 feet i am showing the company why propress stainless is better. they will see the labor cut in half and the material about 10 % higher than the stainless groovelock.propress is the best way-if you use a ridgid tool and viega fittings, not the cheap knockoff crap

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                          • #28
                            Re: Copper joints t-drill & roll grooving

                            and what hack uses galvy couplings on copper???????? if thats ok, then im sure he will have leaks

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                            • #29
                              Re: Copper joints t-drill & roll grooving

                              the only bad thing with the pro press on a process line would be the lack of being able to take it apart for cleaning, inspection, modification, etc.

                              Does the propress have a "O" ring in it, is it suited for the process?

                              just some thoughts

                              G3

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                              • #30
                                Re: Copper joints t-drill & roll grooving

                                yes its rated and im installing 316 press flanges

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