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  • #16
    Re: Proper Use of Hand Valves

    What is the proper orientation for that butterball valve you spoke of???


    If you find a butterball valve on a boiler, replace it.
    Who makes those anyway, Purdue or Tyson?

    Gee, I guess when I get to work next week I better start planning to rip out a few hundred globe vales since we can't use them on high pressure, or is 875 psi low pressure in your book? What about 2200 psi? I know of globe valves that have to hold steam pressure that can go as high as 2200, should I replace those with a butterball valve?

    Gates should be installed with the stem above horizontal, i.e. from 9 to 3 o'clock. we use large ball valves (4, 6, 8 , 12 and larger) all the time for throttling on high volume/high pressure systems, no problems. We also use butterfly valves for throttling of low pressure/high volume systems.

    I can think right off the top of my head of one, a 42" butterfly used as a bypass valve off a big pump. Pump is 185K GPM out put into a 84" pipeline, the 42" bypass is used to dump some of that flow when its not needed since the pump is a fixed speed/constant output of 185K gpm. In this case the bypass is a open-ended line so not much pressure if any.

    But then this thread started out asking about hand valves, and most of those I work with are control valves, either AOVs or MOVs.
    Last edited by Bob D.; 07-05-2012, 05:09 PM.
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    • #17
      Re: Proper Use of Hand Valves

      Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
      What is the proper orientation for that butterball valve you spoke of???




      Who makes those anyway, Purdue or Tyson?

      Gee, I guess when I get to work next week I better start planning to rip out a few hundred globe vales since we can't use them on high pressure, or is 875 psi low pressure in your book? What about 2200 psi? I know of globe valves that have to hold steam pressure that can go as high as 2200, should I replace those with a butterball valve?

      Gates should be installed with the stem above horizontal, i.e. from 9 to 3 o'clock. we use large ball valves (4, 6, 8 , 12 and larger) all the time for throttling on high volume/high pressure systems, no problems. We also use butterfly valves for throttling of low pressure/high volume systems.

      I can think right off the top of my head of one, a 42" butterfly used as a bypass valve off a big pump. Pump is 185K GPM out put into a 84" pipeline, the 42" bypass is used to dump some of that flow when its not needed since the pump is a fixed speed/constant output of 185K gpm. In this case the bypass is a open-ended line so not much pressure if any.

      But then this thread started out asking about hand valves, and most of those I work with are control valves, either AOVs or MOVs.
      The butterball valves are usually on its side due to the linkage rods from the burner strokes it open and closed depending on the firing rate. They are free range found at your local farmers market....

      I have also found globe valves on steam systems working like a champ. They will hold the pressure from other boilers on site while you do the necessary shut downs for cleanings and inspections as well as many other places.
      Last edited by Gettinit; 07-05-2012, 05:28 PM.
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      • #18
        Re: Proper Use of Hand Valves

        I use them all the time.

        http://www.milwaukeevalve.com/data/p...0%20%20SO2.pdf

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        • #19
          Re: Proper Use of Hand Valves

          Many chillers use them for throttling as well.
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          • #20
            Re: Proper Use of Hand Valves

            Originally posted by Gettinit View Post
            I don't really care what any book says. I know from removing old gates and the ones that are upside down looked in better shape. I know from experience that you can get the little bit of grit to come free from the valve easier and faster than the ones with the handle up and the trough packed solid. Most every job I go to in commercial utilizes ball valves for recirculation with no problems whatsoever.

            If you want to point a finger at why the trade has gone down hill it is because people are allowed to use Propress, sharkbites etc. As the end all be all of plumbing repair and installation.
            Gate valves should be handle up or on side at worst. Had an inspector make me rotate a 2" gate valve up back in the 80's before he would pass the job and I've never forgotten.

            David

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            • #21
              Re: Proper Use of Hand Valves

              Side I can deal with just fine. Nobody but the city exercises these types of valves and you are setting yourself up for a fall from a services standpoint. New construction you have to, I know. Nut you will never convince me why it is a better idea. I am willing to listen though. The absolute best position is on the vertical plane.....grit will not settle.
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              • #22
                Re: Proper Use of Hand Valves

                Originally posted by Gettinit View Post
                Oh, forgot to mention that many manufacturers do not want you to use a globe valve for throttling and its proper orientation is upright.
                The following is from Wikipedia. It pretty well sums up what I adhere to when throttling is necessary.

                A globe valve is a type of valve used for regulating flow in a pipeline, consisting of a movable disk-type element and a stationary ring seat in a generally spherical body.[1]
                Globe valves are named for their spherical body shape with the two halves of the body being separated by an internal baffle. This has an opening that forms a seat onto which a movable plug[2] can be screwed in to close (or shut) the valve. The plug is also called a disc or disk.[3][4] In globe valves, the plug is connected to a stem which is operated by screw action using a handwheel in manual valves. Typically, automated globe valves use smooth stems rather than threaded and are opened and closed by an actuator assembly.
                Although globe valves in the past had the spherical bodies which gave them their name, many modern globe valves do not have much of a spherical shape. However, the term globe valve is still often used for valves that have such an internal mechanism. In plumbing, valves with such a mechanism are also often called stop valves since they don't have the global appearance, but the term stop valve may refer to valves which are used to stop flow even when they have other mechanisms or designs.
                Globe valves are used for applications requiring throttling and frequent operation. For example, globe valves or valves with a similar mechanism may be used as sampling valves, which are normally shut except when liquid samples are being taken. Since the baffle restricts flow, they're not recommended where full, unobstructed flow is required.

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                • #23
                  Re: Proper Use of Hand Valves

                  Originally posted by ArizonaPlumber View Post
                  The following is from Wikipedia. It pretty well sums up what I adhere to when throttling is necessary.

                  A globe valve is a type of valve used for regulating flow in a pipeline, consisting of a movable disk-type element and a stationary ring seat in a generally spherical body.[1]
                  Globe valves are named for their spherical body shape with the two halves of the body being separated by an internal baffle. This has an opening that forms a seat onto which a movable plug[2] can be screwed in to close (or shut) the valve. The plug is also called a disc or disk.[3][4] In globe valves, the plug is connected to a stem which is operated by screw action using a handwheel in manual valves. Typically, automated globe valves use smooth stems rather than threaded and are opened and closed by an actuator assembly.
                  Although globe valves in the past had the spherical bodies which gave them their name, many modern globe valves do not have much of a spherical shape. However, the term globe valve is still often used for valves that have such an internal mechanism. In plumbing, valves with such a mechanism are also often called stop valves since they don't have the global appearance, but the term stop valve may refer to valves which are used to stop flow even when they have other mechanisms or designs.
                  Globe valves are used for applications requiring throttling and frequent operation. For example, globe valves or valves with a similar mechanism may be used as sampling valves, which are normally shut except when liquid samples are being taken. Since the baffle restricts flow, they're not recommended where full, unobstructed flow is required.
                  I know, I was making a point that many manufacturers do not recommend this (your quote) but many, including myself use it in this manner. If you read my other posts I think you will understand what I am trying to say. It was kind of a knee jerk reaction that I typed it to show that I know what is written in text. I am not some idiot that is on here posing as a plumber and took a little offense to what was written by Cleanmen2. Everybody has their own opinion so I respect his stance on the original post.

                  The only thing I strongly disagree with from a service plumbing standpoint is the positioning of a gate valve but I do know what is written and how they would want them installed...if someone would actually buy i=one to install.
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                  • #24
                    Re: Proper Use of Hand Valves

                    Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
                    What is the proper orientation for that butterball valve you spoke of???




                    Who makes those anyway, Purdue or Tyson?

                    Gee, I guess when I get to work next week I better start planning to rip out a few hundred globe vales since we can't use them on high pressure, or is 875 psi low pressure in your book? What about 2200 psi? I know of globe valves that have to hold steam pressure that can go as high as 2200, should I replace those with a butterball valve?

                    Gates should be installed with the stem above horizontal, i.e. from 9 to 3 o'clock. we use large ball valves (4, 6, 8 , 12 and larger) all the time for throttling on high volume/high pressure systems, no problems. We also use butterfly valves for throttling of low pressure/high volume systems.

                    I can think right off the top of my head of one, a 42" butterfly used as a bypass valve off a big pump. Pump is 185K GPM out put into a 84" pipeline, the 42" bypass is used to dump some of that flow when its not needed since the pump is a fixed speed/constant output of 185K gpm. In this case the bypass is a open-ended line so not much pressure if any.

                    But then this thread started out asking about hand valves, and most of those I work with are control valves, either AOVs or MOVs.
                    Bob, BIG PUMP...........!!!!
                    Nowadays cponsideration would be given to VSD on the pump. Of course this would depend on pump and application too.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Proper Use of Hand Valves

                      Originally posted by Gettinit View Post
                      I know, I was making a point that many manufacturers do not recommend this (your quote) but many, including myself use it in this manner. If you read my other posts I think you will understand what I am trying to say. It was kind of a knee jerk reaction that I typed it to show that I know what is written in text. I am not some idiot that is on here posing as a plumber and took a little offense to what was written by Cleanmen2. Everybody has their own opinion so I respect his stance on the original post.

                      The only thing I strongly disagree with from a service plumbing standpoint is the positioning of a gate valve but I do know what is written and how they would want them installed...if someone would actually buy i=one to install.
                      I went back and re-read all the posts in this thread and couldn't find where Cleanmen2 personally dissed you. Actually, what I gleaned, was that Cleanmen2, Rick, and myself and others had written that GLOBE VALVES are to be used for throttling, NOT GATE VALVES.

                      As for taking offense, I highly recommend a product you probably used when playing sports in High School, it's called Tuff-Skin. You've been here about 3 going on 4 months. If you found these posts offensive, please fasten your seat belt. You're in for a bumpy ride.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Proper Use of Hand Valves

                        I'm cool man. I said what I had to say, which was little, and moved on.
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                        • #27
                          Re: Proper Use of Hand Valves

                          Originally posted by Gettinit View Post
                          Side I can deal with just fine. Nobody but the city exercises these types of valves and you are setting yourself up for a fall from a services standpoint. New construction you have to, I know. Nut you will never convince me why it is a better idea. I am willing to listen though. The absolute best position is on the vertical plane.....grit will not settle.
                          actually that's the problem. the grit/ debris will work itself into the valve gateway while in the upside down open position. remember that the gate is not a even parallel gate, but more of a wedge. debris can settle in between the gate and the valve body and prevent the gate from closing. that's the reason for the requirement of installing a gate valve in the horizontal or vertical position up. not down.

                          rick.
                          phoebe it is

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                          • #28
                            Re: Proper Use of Hand Valves

                            You are right Rick (I am not being a Smart A$$) but it will move even after years with no exercising and will seat. I suppose I have a hard time swallowing it after seeing it done a certain way without any issues. When I said vertically I meant perpendicular to the floor.
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                            • #29
                              Re: Proper Use of Hand Valves

                              everyone who has commented on your post have all said that upside down is not correct. i've not only commented first, but also wrote the reasoning behind it.

                              now in an all copper system, it probably wouldn't be as common to get a piece of rust wedged in the gateway, as it would be on a steel system. but the code doesn't differentiate between copper and steel installations for valve position.

                              of course, i haven't used a gate valve since the mid 80's.

                              rick.
                              phoebe it is

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                              • #30
                                Re: Proper Use of Hand Valves

                                This stuff is funny. I don't care what code says about the position of a gate valve! I have seen them in all positions and I have seen a bunch fail in all positions. Junk is junk no matter how code says it should be done.

                                Matter of fact most gate valves I see are vertical or stem up on the horizantal and they always seem bad. Maybe code is just plane wrong
                                Last edited by saysflushable; 07-08-2012, 11:20 PM.

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