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  • Flux pin hole

    so i had an early morning wake up call today/ saturday with a beverly hills condo building and they shut off the water as there was a leak coming into a first floor unit ceiling. the building was built in the early 80's and nothing stacks as far as plumbing. so the piping runs wild in the ceilings.

    managed to find the pin hole in the copper 90 pretty quick and fixed it even quicker with the help of my propress

    from what i can tell, the 1/2'' 90 was affected by flux still inside the 90 serving a bidet that seldom got used. looks to be the old laco flux i use to refer to as apple sauce. this was a cold water leak.

    rick.



    look closely at the right 90 with a fine water stream squirting down.



    repaired quickly with propress using 2- 1/2'' st 45's and a reducer to fill the gap of the soldered 90 and reducer.



    look into the bottom of the 90 and see the residual flux still there. the bidet upstairs didn't have enough flow to flush out the dried out flux on the cold riser. my guess is laco flux.



    almost impossible to see the pin hole in the circled sharpie mark. even with a lite shining into the fitting.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by PLUMBER RICK; 08-19-2012, 12:30 AM.
    phoebe it is

  • #2
    Re: Flux pin hole

    The green stuff is the flux? Was the problem due to the fact they did not wipe the outside of the pipe or was the pinhole from the inside?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Flux pin hole

      inside. the outside was sloppy, but not too gooey with flux left behind.

      the newer water soluble flux washes away when the water is turned on.

      rick.
      phoebe it is

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Flux pin hole

        Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
        inside. the outside was sloppy, but not too gooey with flux left behind.

        the newer water soluble flux washes away when the water is turned on.

        rick.

        Yes, but it does not remove the requirement to flush the piping which is something that many do not do and plumbing inspectors don't enforce.

        A simple water test, like that done for home wells, for those homes supplied by municipal water systems would reveal this and stop the problem. Years ago I might have relayed this but I had a friend who bought a new house and the pipes had not been flushed (I surmise) and whatever flux they used, again a victim of laco I think, the whole family ended up with a load of dental problems right after they moved in. within a couple months everyone in the house was loosing fillings and those that had 'good strong' teeth before now were all of a sudden having enamel erosion and other problems. Dentist suggested they get their water sampled and tested which they did and they found high levels of residual flux in the water, more so in the cold water line (my guess is because the cold water tended to solidify the flux where the hot would break it down and wash it anyway faster). Anyway, they had the pipe flushed out and re-tested and it was good. And not long after their dental problems went away. They sued the plumbing contractor under the state homeowner protection act and won. Didn't get a huge award but they got all their dental paid for and the cost for the testing and flushing of the lines plus legal fees, etc.

        So long story short don't use more flux than you need to; it's not a substitute for poor soldering habits or lack of skill; and be sure to flush the lines soon after as possible before the residual flux has time to do its damage.
        ---------------
        Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
        ---------------
        “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
        ---------
        "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
        ---------
        sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Flux pin hole

          Rick, doesn't Propress make a 3/4x1/2 reducing 90 or you didn't have one with you?
          ---------------
          Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
          ---------------
          “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
          ---------
          "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
          ---------
          sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Flux pin hole

            i'm sure they make the 3/4'' x 1/2'' 90. but even if i had 1, it would have required 2 couplings to cover the cut section. my way with 2 c x ftg. 45's and a cxc reducer filled the gap with no couplings.

            rick.
            phoebe it is

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Flux pin hole

              Too bad they don't make a repair type fitting that would let you cut out a bad sweat fitting, clean any solder off the OD by heating and wiping or using cloth, then replace with a single fitting with longer legs that would reach the ends of the pipe. Say for a 3/4 CU ELL you would cut it at say 1" from center on both legs then clean OD of pipe, install the repair fitting and press it. DO they make such a fitting if not I am saying "patent pending" for my idea. :-)
              ---------------
              Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
              ---------------
              “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
              ---------
              "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
              ---------
              sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Flux pin hole

                Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
                Yes, but it does not remove the requirement to flush the piping which is something that many do not do and plumbing inspectors don't enforce.

                A simple water test, like that done for home wells, for those homes supplied by municipal water systems would reveal this and stop the problem. Years ago I might have relayed this but I had a friend who bought a new house and the pipes had not been flushed (I surmise) and whatever flux they used, again a victim of laco I think, the whole family ended up with a load of dental problems right after they moved in. within a couple months everyone in the house was loosing fillings and those that had 'good strong' teeth before now were all of a sudden having enamel erosion and other problems. Dentist suggested they get their water sampled and tested which they did and they found high levels of residual flux in the water, more so in the cold water line (my guess is because the cold water tended to solidify the flux where the hot would break it down and wash it anyway faster). Anyway, they had the pipe flushed out and re-tested and it was good. And not long after their dental problems went away. They sued the plumbing contractor under the state homeowner protection act and won. Didn't get a huge award but they got all their dental paid for and the cost for the testing and flushing of the lines plus legal fees, etc.

                So long story short don't use more flux than you need to; it's not a substitute for poor soldering habits or lack of skill; and be sure to flush the lines soon after as possible before the residual flux has time to do its damage.
                I would have thought the daily use of the water would cause the flux to flush out in your friend's house - or was the non-water soluable flux and does that need to be flushed out right away?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Flux pin hole

                  The problem is that flushing and disenfecting of the system is not enforced as per the code, at least not our code with differs from most other states.
                  10.9 FLUSHING AND DISINFECTING POTABLE WATER SYSTEMS
                  10.9.1 Flushing
                  The water service piping and distribution piping to all fixtures and outlets shall be flushed until the water
                  runs clear and free of debris or particles. Faucet aerators or screens shall be removed during flushing operations.
                  10.9.2 Disinfecting
                  a. Where required by the Authority Having Jurisdiction, the water service piping and the hot and cold water
                  distribution piping in new or renovated potable water systems shall be disinfected after flushing and prior to use.
                  The procedure used shall be as follows or an approved equivalent:
                  1. All water outlets shall be posted to warn against use during disinfecting operations.
                  2. Disinfecting shall be performed by persons experienced in such work.
                  3. The water supply to the piping system or parts thereof being disinfected shall be valved-off from the
                  normal water source to prevent the introduction of disinfecting agents into a public water supply or portions of a
                  system that are not being disinfected.
                  4. The piping shall be disinfected with a water-chlorine solution. During the injection of the disinfecting
                  agent into the piping, each outlet shall be fully opened several times until a concentration of not less than 50 parts
                  per million chlorine is present at every outlet. The solution shall be allowed to stand in the piping for at least 24 hours.
                  5. An acceptable alternate to the 50 ppm/24-hour procedure described in Section 10.9.2.d shall be to
                  maintain a level of not less than 200 parts per million chlorine for not less than three hours. If this alternate procedure
                  is used, the heavily concentrated chlorine shall not be allowed to stand in the piping system for more than 6 hours.
                  Also, special procedures shall be used to dispose of the heavily concentrated chlorine in an environmentally acceptable
                  and approved manner.
                  6. At the end of the required retention time, the residual level of chlorine at every outlet shall be not less than five parts
                  per million. If the residual is less than five parts per million, the disinfecting procedure shall be repeated until the required
                  minimum chlorine residual is obtained at every outlet.
                  7. After the required residual chlorine level is obtained at every outlet, the system shall be flushed to
                  remove the disinfecting agent. Flushing shall continue until the chlorine level at every outlet is reduced to that of the
                  incoming water supply.
                  ---------------
                  Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
                  ---------------
                  “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
                  ---------
                  "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
                  ---------
                  sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Flux pin hole

                    sounds good in theory, but in the piratical standpoint, in the 15 years of new construction, i only remember 2 projects getting disinfected.

                    as far as flushing, it could take literally 6-9 months from the installation of copper to the time the fixtures are set before the lines can be flushed for the typical project we did.

                    the whole water soulabe flux came about after several disasters with fire sprinkler companies doing copper systems. the flux would eventually find its way to the heads and eat away the sprinkler sealing disc. there was no real way to flush a fire sprinkler system with all the drops.

                    but for the last 20 years, we have been required to use water soluble flux on copper. not bad for clean and dry new construction, but is awful for the service side with water still in the systems.

                    the solution is propress. works everytime with or without water and no flux or solder to worry about.

                    rick.
                    phoebe it is

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Flux pin hole

                      That's great.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Flux pin hole

                        We have to hire a disinfection company for every plumbing job in a public school. I just changed out one sink, which includes a tmv and sediment trap. Disinfection cost = $2,650.00.
                        The paperwork takes longer than the job.

                        Comment

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