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  • hydonic systems help/diagrams

    Is there someone here that has extensive knowledge w/ boiler and chiller systems. I've worked on several new systems. One that was engineered correctly w/ nice diagrams and symbols that made sense. The other one was half-assed drawn-up and therefore half-assed installed. The last guy I worked for was pretty smart. He passed Wa state journeyman test in '75 w/ 6 months experience. No code book reading just a plumbing dynamics book. He started his business in '98 and just closed because the last big job he did he hasn't got paid completely for. Anyway, I'd like to find a general diagram that would show detail about the location of the following on a chiller and /or boiler system w/ big pumps, flow control switches, flex locations, vibration dampers,check valves, butterfly valves, etc.
    I 'd like to know more for myself than anything. This new outfit I work for operates like " put it in like its drawn and if its wrong they can pay us to fix it". I really hate doing things twice-whether its my fault or someone elses. Also it would be nice to see the correct way to support big pipe(3" -8") and isolate/insulate these pipes from the atmosphere. My company seems to want to do things right -for the most part -but they don't know how.

  • #2
    carverelli,

    Yesterday you said you had no problems slathering solvent cement on the outside of a leaking PVC joint in order to put it into permenant service. The implications of that post are more than frightning.

    Today you are asking for advice on how to install a large commercial boiler and hang large heavy pipe that will be full of extremely hot pressurized water and that another human being may have to walk under and live with.

    With so many different thermal and pressure conditions involved with a boiler of any size, and with so many things that could go wrong with even a competent installer making a mistake, its just not prudent for someone to attempt to talk you through such an installation. If your company has you installing a large boiler and you do not know how to hang a piece of 3 inch pipe then your company has no business being in business.

    I am sorry but you are not ready to be installing boilers, or plumbing, without a professional journeyman with you at ALL times.

    Your post from yesterday:


    carverelli
    Junior Member
    Member # 7205

    Rate Member posted 11-07-2005 11:23 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I disagree. If you dobbed some glue on the fittings and they held test (10 ft head or 5 psi air test) they will drain waste water for years to come. Unless of course they are stressed from poor wall/floor framing or concrete settling.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

    Comment


    • #3
      plumber,
      back the truck up. You seem a little quick to condemn. I didn't say I needed advice on how to hang big pipe and install pressurized boilers etc. I was looking for some general guidelines. I worked for a guy that did it right. This new outfit doesn't. I still have to make a living. The truth be known, I am the most knowledgeable guy in our company about such things, but I'm new to them so my opinion falls on deaf ears quite often. I understand a lot of the reason why these systems are engineered by people more calculating than plumbers. I can read a print and install as drawn. However, engineers make mistakes and leave important details out of a system. The last one I worked on served a three level office building aprox 50k sq feet. 4" copper inlet and outlet out of the boiler in the basement and out of the chiller on the roof. Neither system had a y-strainer. Most of the building is heated via VAV boxes located throughout the building -say around 10 or so on each floor -the connections have actuators and y- strainers on each unit . However on the roof the chiller piping has no y-strainer drawn in the plans. Didn't seem right to me. All the temp and pressure ports were pulled w/ a tee drill after the pipe was installed. There's copper filings left in the pipe that needs to be strained out . There is a motor-driven 3 way valve on the outlet side of the air handler . Not exactly sure , but sharp copper filings could damage the internal working of a big valve like this. My company is starting to do bigger and bigger jobs. While I 'm not completley versed on the finer going ons of a hydronic system, I can fit pipe and read a print. And I'm the closest thing to a mechanic in my whole company.
      No , I didn't want you to walk me through an installation of a high pressure boiler system. I was just asking if there was a site where i could get some general guidelines if nothing else to have a little firepower when I'm told to"install it as its drawn". To give you an idea when I tested the last system( I came in after all the big pipe was installed and supported), out of the 30 or 35 joints in 3 and 4 inch copper pipe, these guys had 7 or 8 solder leaks. I realize big pipe is somewhat challenging to solder, but that is rediculous. My personal air/acetylene turbotorch w/ an A-32 tip is the hottest fire in the company. These guys were using a propane torch. I told the big boss if these guys couldn't solder any better than that maybe they should use propress(they have one up to 4") or victaulic copper ( my favorite) .
      And about the glue dobbed on the fitting-bite me. Yes, I have done it. I've also taken hard tar to a no-hub pipe w/ sand holes after I torched it fairly hot, and a whole host of no-nos. This isn't a perfect world, I don't profess to be be a textbook plumber at all times, and if you do and are my hat's off to you, maybe I can come visit your perfect plumber world some day so- lecture someone else.

      Comment


      • #4
        carverelli,

        I don't want to pile on but not only are you not a text book plumber you are also violating the Plumbing Code.It's not just about collecting a check, we all need to work at being the guardians of our industry.

        Mark
        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

        Comment


        • #5
          Utah- I can gaurantee you, w/ the people I've worked around I'm in the top 5% about doing what is right - dong what's "code" and not slapping in "garbage". No I'm not a textbook plumber. I've done a lot of production work and as such I Realize there are accepted practices. I've laid miles of pipe, soldered thousands of fittings etc.There are on ocassion instances where I've had to settle betweeen what's code and what's practical. Most of the times its from conditions I can't control. The no-hub pipe that had sand holes down one side was stuck through a core-drilled hole between floors and wrapped in sill seal before the gc grouted it tight. Take it all apart- several hours of work- hold off the other tradesmans wanting to work in that area, or fix it. It held 2 floors of water, I think it will drain someones crap. Like I said,those of you that point fingers about "textbook" plumbing 100% of the time either live in a dream world or haven't done enough work to talk about. Unless you work for yourself, I'm not sure how you still have a job. Some time the saying is so so true " those how can't do -teach!"

          Comment


          • #6
            carverelli.

            We can compare war stories all you want and it won't make a difference. I was a foreman for the Plumbing & Hvac division of a large construction company before I owned my own shop for twenty years.

            You can rationalize all you want about your reasoning for doing it wrong. However, when you post on a Internet site it's Okay to violate the Code and give the customer less than they are paying for you are being irresponsible.

            As stated by someone eles earlier, what is acceptable for an untrained lay person and a professional are two different things.

            Mark
            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

            Comment


            • #7
              utah- ya whatever. Its apparent to me, that you and every other plumber that plumbs by the book 100% of the time without fail, rain or shine no matter what are the 1% minority. Welcome to the upper upper tippy top uppermost echelon. Personally ,I just think you're under illusions of grandeur. Have an nice life.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by carverelli:
                Is there someone here that has extensive knowledge w/ boiler and chiller systems. I've worked on several new systems. One that was engineered correctly w/ nice diagrams and symbols that made sense. The other one was half-assed drawn-up and therefore half-assed installed. The last guy I worked for was pretty smart. He passed Wa state journeyman test in '75 w/ 6 months experience. No code book reading just a plumbing dynamics book. He started his business in '98 and just closed because the last big job he did he hasn't got paid completely for. Anyway, I'd like to find a general diagram that would show detail about the location of the following on a chiller and /or boiler system w/ big pumps, flow control switches, flex locations, vibration dampers,check valves, butterfly valves, etc.
                I 'd like to know more for myself than anything. This new outfit I work for operates like " put it in like its drawn and if its wrong they can pay us to fix it". I really hate doing things twice-whether its my fault or someone elses. Also it would be nice to see the correct way to support big pipe(3" -8") and isolate/insulate these pipes from the atmosphere. My company seems to want to do things right -for the most part -but they don't know how.
                Carverelli,

                I understand what you are saying. What you need to do, on a system like you described, is to file an RFI (Request For Information). You can do this through your company's form or through the general contractor's form (which is your best beat, if it is available).

                An RFI is a document you write requesting further information on a project from the engineer. This is a standard construction proceedure and a prudent move that protects your company.

                What this does is to put the liability back to the engineer, who should be designing the system to begin with. You as the installer are NOT doing your job by proceeding without proper drawings. As the installer, you are not an engineer, nor should you be expected to be one.

                the dog
                the dog

                Comment


                • #9
                  dog,
                  I have done just that on several occasions.
                  Having completed just several of these systems, I'm not sure on the correct nomenclature when is comes to the mechanical devices/hangers/insulation sleeves. When I write a rfi, I like to address the specific problem and then offer several solution based on previous experience, but ultimately leaving the decision up to the engineer. My previous employer sorta got his *** in a sling because he reengineered a system and the firm that did it originally asked him if he was going to gaurantee it. Then he started doing rfi's like I mentioned.
                  I don't have access to the kind of education the local union has, and was just wanting a general overview of a chiller/boiler mechanical system w/ pumps, makeup water, storage tanks, air seperators, where to install isolation valves, flexes and pressure /temp ports, flow switches.
                  More than anything else just to affirm what I already know. The more I see it the easier it is to remember.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Carverelli,

                    Slathering solvent cement on the outside of a a DWV PVC joint is bad workmanship by a professional regardless what the reason is. And telling people to "bite me" over that practice tells me you have no business making a living in the plumbing trades. Given your total disregard for doing things right makes one wonder what other laws you disregard because you find them inconvienant. There, I bit you.

                    And if you have to hold off other tradesmen from working in an area to properly replace a bad piece of pipe penetrating from one floor to the next then it is your DUTY and responsibility as a professional to do so. If that piece has sand holes in it just below or just above the penetration then the entire piece is suspect and you are negligent for not replacing it. If the other trades have to wait then they have to wait, but leaving suspect pipe within closed walls and between two floors could well create major problems down the road and unless the other tradesmen cared as little for their tradecraft as you do they would understand.. Its easier to fix it now than after the place is finished.

                    Also, IF, as you claim your company does not know how to install boilers and you are the closest thing they have to a mechanic I am glad I do not live in Washington and will never risk my life traveling there. A one year apprentice should be able to lay miles of water main, thats just several days work. and "thousands" of copper fittings in residential work would take about a month or so to obtain those numbers.

                    One might conclude that after about a year working with another outfit you simply grossly overstated your credentials to get a job and it is coming back to bite you because you don't know what you are doing and you can't ask your superiors for help or they will know you lied to get your job. So you hope some nice friendly folks on the net will bail you out with free advice.

                    You're reply to Utah just above should tell everyone everything they need to know about whether or not to take you seriously as a professional. I know and work with many, many professional plumbers and fitters carverelli, and you sir are no professional.
                    Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      carverelli,

                      You’re too late I’ve already been accused of being a one percenter by the Mesa Arizona Police Department. Of course Sonny Barger was holding a BBQ in town that week and I was on a cross-country ride so my bike was kind of nasty but that’s another story.

                      I’m not looking for a battle with you but in my opinion you do the trades a disservice when you recommend violating the Code rather than making such a simple repair. There has been a lot of talk about the dumbing down of the trades. If you truly are supervising the work of others you have a greater responsibility to do a professional job. Mickey Mousing a repair is hardly an example of a professional plumber.

                      Mark
                      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        nice try plumber ,but I don't feel a bit bad, well- maybe for you. There are accepted practices in the trades, I know what kind of plumber I am and so does all the businesses in my home townwgere I've worked for 15 years. I've NEVER been out a job unless I wanted some time off. I could quit my job Tomorrow at 10:00 in the morning and be at work at a different shop by noon. I've built that kind of reputation. So kudos to you and your perfection. I don't have any problem sleeping at night.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          carverelli,

                          I am far from perfect. But there are laws and codes for a reason and the practices you preach are very substandard. Both work wise and safety wise.

                          And if after 15 years in the trades you need
                          to see the correct way to support and insulate pipe then I guarantee you are not in the top 5% of any group of plumbers, fitters, helpers, secretaries, or salesmen.

                          Websters New Dictionary:

                          Plumber; a skilled worker who fits and maintains pipes, fixtures drains ect.

                          Skilled; an ability to do something well.

                          Slathering solvent cement or tar on the outside of a leaky fitting or pipe is not doing something well.

                          There is a site on the net called Howstuffworks. If you google that site it will explain how a boiler system works.

                          If you want to contact the maker of the boiler company themselves they should be able to send or e-mail the proper installation reqirements to you.

                          have a nice life.
                          Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Can I be a one percenter too

                            What a putz. Compare these two quotes, when you see them in the same post, they seem to be at opposite ends of the spectrum don't they?

                            From the post that started it all:
                            "Also it would be nice to see the correct way to support big pipe(3" -8") and isolate/insulate these pipes from the atmosphere."

                            And the next day: "back the truck up. You seem a little quick to condemn. I didn't say I needed advice on how to hang big pipe and install pressurized boilers etc. I was looking for some general guidelines. I worked for a guy that did it right."

                            You must not have lasted long with that "guy that did it right", or you didn't pay attention -OR- more likely, you were FIRED for screwing up and doing sub-standard work.

                            "My company seems to want to do things right -for the most part -but they don't know how."

                            You deserve each other.

                            If you want help, admit you don't know and follow the advice given, don't bite the hand that feeds you.

                            You say you don't have access to the training that union members receive, and rightly so. Yeah, that is reserved for union members. The curriculum and training materials were developed, bought, and paid for by union members to help their union brothers and new apprentices learn the trade, not to give it away to any one. If you want the benefit of the training, join the union. If choose not to (which is everyone's right)or can not qualify, then spend some of your own money to further your own future and seek your knowledge elsewhere, a trade school maybe.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Bob D I was hoping it wouldn't get to the union thing. I've got several friends in the local plumbers and steamfitters union, and after interviewing with the organizer, I'm not sure I can work in that environment. They have some positive notes, but they are a little too extreme for me. The training would be nice but the price is too high. I couldn't sell my soul - and that's what they want. And then I'd have to listen to the Democrat rigoramole. What a crock. The unions had their place back in the day, but not anymore. A large scale construction site uses mostly union help because they have access to a mass of semi skilled labor home sitting on their bag, because they've already sold their soul. In my opinion if they can't keep you busy, why can't you work somewhere else. And I don't kiss butt to get any job, and all lot of that goes around -so I've heard. From stories that I've heard some seveal of my buddies, I could plumb circles around 3/4 of the union plumbers at this local,but unfortunately will probably not get the chance to do it.

                              Comment

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