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  • Which size should I go with?????

    I have 5 toliets,5 sinks,1 urinal which all dump into a 4" main sewer.Now we have been recently having problems with the drain backing up.We have had it cameraed but really could not find any signifient problem.MY boss wants to remove the 4" cast iron and replace it with 6" pvc.Now I do not agree with this b/c we are dealing with 1.6gpf toilets.Take in mind this is a libary on a college campus.There is 2 braches one which has 3 toliets,3 sinks and the other which wyes into the 1st one which has 2 toliets,2 sinks, 1urinal.

  • #2
    Re: Which size should I go with?????

    When was all this plumbing installed and how long did it take to start backing up? When it does back up; what does it take to unclog the line?
    Buy cheap, buy twice.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Which size should I go with?????

      Originally posted by Newbee View Post
      I have 5 toliets,5 sinks,1 urinal which all dump into a 4" main sewer.Now we have been recently having problems with the drain backing up.We have had it cameraed but really could not find any signifient problem.MY boss wants to remove the 4" cast iron and replace it with 6" pvc.Now I do not agree with this b/c we are dealing with 1.6gpf toilets.Take in mind this is a libary on a college campus.There is 2 braches one which has 3 toliets,3 sinks and the other which wyes into the 1st one which has 2 toliets,2 sinks, 1urinal.
      If you and your contractotr look at the IPC. you'll find that a 4 " bldg. drain/sewer is rated for 216 dfu.s {at 1/4" per foot fall ] , installing a 6' line is ludicrous ,you may have problems anywhere from a blocked vent to a belly in the line , and not to be mean but you need more experience to troubleshoot this one , if both bathroom groups back-up then you know the problem is at or downstream of the combo which is the most downstream tie-in-start looking there................good luck ,APF

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Which size should I go with?????

        Originally posted by Newbee View Post
        I have 5 toilets,5 sinks,1 urinal which all dump into a 4" main sewer.Now we have been recently having problems with the drain backing up.We have had it cameraed but really could not find any significant problem.MY boss wants to remove the 4" cast iron and replace it with 6" pvc.Now I do not agree with this b/c we are dealing with 1.6gpf toilets.Take in mind this is a library on a college campus.There is 2 branches one which has 3 toilets,3 sinks and the other which wyes into the 1st one which has 2 toilets,2 sinks, 1urinal.

        newbee, a camera should be able to tell you how the slope/ grade is of the pipe. with a little bit of flow down the line, you should be able to see if there are dips or offsets. since the problem is recent, this brings up some more questions.

        how long have you been working there and what is the track record you've found?

        what does it take to clean out and how many feet does it take to get it to flow?

        do you bring back anything on the cable?

        have you tried jetting?

        are these 1.6gpf toilets new to the school? did they replace existing 3.5gpf toilets?

        changing to a larger line might not solve your problem. it's not a fixture unit issue.

        what i've found in similar situations, such as stacking powder rooms with 1.6gpf. toilets and sinks is a soft paper stoppage. 1.6 gpf. doesn't have the line carrying distance like the older 3.5. could it be that since it's only being used for waste and paper, that the stoppage is caused by lack of clean water helping to wash the line and carry the paper, waste into a common sewer.

        i've had a couple of buildings in a condo building that had this issue. both were 4 stacking powder rooms. both are newer buildings. one building has approx. 80' of horizontal 4'' waste pipe before it tied into a common line that had other fixtures, like showers and laundry. the other building had approx. 50' of horizontal piping.

        since both building were new, with the piping suspended from the parking garage, it was pretty simple to check grade. i even ran a camera into the 80' line to check for construction debris. all looked fine.

        what eventually happened was i convinced the owners of the condo's to flush prior to using the toilet and to flush again after the real flush. so that made 3 flushes for a #2 use if it was a male with a #1, then 1 flush was fine.

        the issue was the lack of clean water washing all the paper and waste into the common main to carry it out the building.

        if this is a school, it might be ruff to get them to go easy on the paper and double flush. schools are exempt from the 1.6 gpf. toilets out here. they use the 3.5 with good results.

        fill in the blanks on my original questions, and it will answer the mystery.

        rick.
        phoebe it is

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Which size should I go with?????

          I agree with rick, do not increase to 6", what a waste.....run a camera and look for bellys, look into how much water is getting down the line, I had a problem like rick had described with the 80' line, I solved it in much the same way, just told the customer to flush twice! run lots of water down the drains
          sigpic

          Robert

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Which size should I go with?????

            just wait till they pass the new 1.3 gpf. toilets

            the architects need to re-think the placement of powder rooms. just like we had to rework the laundry room waste lines in soap producing fixtures.

            the issue is not that a 1.6, can't flush, it's the fact that 1.6 can't carry the waste far enough down the line.

            keep in mind that the 2 prior examples were on new buildings in above ground piping on a garage ceiling. it' doesn't get any easier to figure things out.

            too many rocket scientist making laws. plumbers with first hand experience should have a say on what works and what doesn't.

            i can tell you that if the pipe was plastic, properly installed and supported, it would have had a better chance of working. eliminate friction and 1 flush would make it to china

            rick.
            phoebe it is

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Which size should I go with?????

              hi Rick, I had the pleasure of clearing a stoppage in a waterless urinal the other day, unlike waterless urinals from 10 years ago, the new ones have come along way......question, rick, you may know the answer, I heard that a 1.6gpf will push waste approx 22' in a smooth line, approx 16' in a cast line... not sure if this is true, I know there are so many variables to this idea.......I haven't repeated it out loud yet, because I'm not so sure it's true, ONE LAST THOUGHT,(about newbees post) IF THE LINE HAS TO MUCH FALL, SOLIDS WILL STAY BACK. cameras solve everything if you know what your looking for, I couldn't live without mine! Best thing ridgid created.
              Last edited by westcoastplumber; 05-09-2007, 10:01 PM.
              sigpic

              Robert

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Which size should I go with?????

                Originally posted by westcoastplumber View Post
                hi Rick, I had the pleasure of clearing a stoppage in a waterless urinal the other day, unlike waterless urinals from 10 years ago, the new ones have come along way......question, rick, you may know the answer, I heard that a 1.6gpf will push waste approx 22' in a smooth line, approx 16' in a cast line... not sure if this is true, I know there are so many variables to this idea.......I haven't repeated it out loud yet, because I'm not so sure it's true, ONE LAST THOUGHT,(about newbees post) IF THE LINE HAS TO MUCH FALL, SOLIDS WILL STAY BACK. cameras solve everything if you know what your looking for, I couldn't live without mine! Best thing ridgid created.

                robert, it doesn't sound like you're a plumber that was a ditch digger glad to see that you're into plumbing like the others here that like to share and keep up with all the new stuff.

                how nasty was that urinal stoppage. what did you clean it with? what was it that caused the stoppage? i've not had the pleasure to clean a waterless urinal yet

                the stronger flushing pressure assist toilets are good for approx. 45' as i remember

                remember that every maker of toilets has their own way of fudging numbers. i know that the pressure assist toilets are the strongest flushers. but i also like the toto g-max and american standard champion toilets. i don't have any real first hand experience with the dual flush australian 4'' trap ''caroma" toilet.

                you are absolutely correct with too much fall. same reason why there is a limited vertical distance on waste lines too. 1%= 1/8'' per foot to 2%, 1/4'' per foot will take it to china, (around the globe).

                when i first bought my original camera back in the early 90's. it was a real seesnake. made by seesnake in san diego. ridgid worked out a partnership or buyout and basically repainted the original design from blue to ridgid orange.

                sure they have made a lot of refinements, and improvements, but i'm sure seesnake of san diego still is the brains and ridgid is the marketing? sorry, just my opinion.

                rick.
                phoebe it is

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Which size should I go with?????

                  Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                  robert, it doesn't sound like you're a plumber that was a ditch digger glad to see that you're into plumbing like the others here that like to share and keep up with all the new stuff.

                  how nasty was that urinal stoppage. what did you clean it with? what was it that caused the stoppage? i've not had the pleasure to clean a waterless urinal yet

                  the stronger flushing pressure assist toilets are good for approx. 45' as i remember

                  remember that every maker of toilets has their own way of fudging numbers. i know that the pressure assist toilets are the strongest flushers. but i also like the toto g-max and american standard champion toilets. i don't have any real first hand experience with the dual flush australian 4'' trap ''caroma" toilet.

                  you are absolutely correct with too much fall. same reason why there is a limited vertical distance on waste lines too. 1%= 1/8'' per foot to 2%, 1/4'' per foot will take it to china, (around the globe).

                  when i first bought my original camera back in the early 90's. it was a real seesnake. made by seesnake in san diego. ridgid worked out a partnership or buyout and basically repainted the original design from blue to ridgid orange.

                  sure they have made a lot of refinements, and improvements, but i'm sure seesnake of san diego still is the brains and ridgid is the marketing? sorry, just my opinion.

                  rick.
                  Hey Plumber Rick, Removed the cup and ran a general top snake with a hollow core cable, yeast from the urine caused the stoppage, I suggested to the customer he dump a gallon of water down the urinal without the cup once or twice a month. the waterless urinals I have worked on are without traps, easy to clear, but stink like all other urinals!!!!!! the cup keeps the sewer gases where they belong. A/S champions have a messed up flush valve, the little red rubber gasket dosen't seat properly and causes the toilet to run, not all supply houses have this, I found it easier to replace the tank in some cases, try a kohler cimarron, excellent toilet, 3" flush valve, easy replacement parts, and inexpensive with the kohler name I love plumbing, it is a very serious misunderstood trade, to many people cheapining the trade up. It is one thing to install a waste and vent system for example, it is another thing to understand the logic and reason behind all the "plumbing." thanks for the history on the seesnake, great products. I just removed the vcr from mine because it was eating tapes, took it to a repair shop, got it back in 2 hrs without downtime, only paid 65.00. better then shipping it away for repair..............
                  sigpic

                  Robert

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Which size should I go with?????

                    westcoastplumber,

                    You are correct that plumbing is a very serious trade. I am a mechanical engineer that works for a large plumbing/Hvac contractor and even when I was working out of a engineering office, the plumbing trade was very misunderstood.

                    People(developers) seem to think that plumbing is like the old adage that "crap runs downhill" is all you need to know.

                    Anyway, dont even know why I posted this, guess the "dog" will call me a "post whore" next.

                    Regards,

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Which size should I go with?????

                      Originally posted by westcoastplumber View Post
                      Hey Plumber Rick, Removed the cup and ran a general top snake with a hollow core cable, yeast from the urine caused the stoppage, I suggested to the customer he dump a gallon of water down the urinal without the cup once or twice a month. the waterless urinals I have worked on are without traps, easy to clear, but stink like all other urinals!!!!!! the cup keeps the sewer gases where they belong. A/S champions have a messed up flush valve, the little red rubber gasket doesn't seat properly and causes the toilet to run, not all supply houses have this, I found it easier to replace the tank in some cases, try a kohler cimarron, excellent toilet, 3" flush valve, easy replacement parts, and inexpensive with the kohler name I love plumbing, it is a very serious misunderstood trade, to many people cheapining the trade up. It is one thing to install a waste and vent system for example, it is another thing to understand the logic and reason behind all the "plumbing." thanks for the history on the seesnake, great products. I just removed the vcr from mine because it was eating tapes, took it to a repair shop, got it back in 2 hrs without downtime, only paid 65.00. better then shipping it away for repair..............
                      robert, you're correct about the american standard champion, but i've only had 1 with a bad washer. home depot sells the toilets and the gaskets. about $4.50

                      i'm not a kohler fan. i feel that most of their products are way overrated. also they do a very poor job in the research and development department.
                      with all the new construction i did and all the service i do now, i can see the long term effects and even short term problems they have

                      too many to list but how would you like to stock 12 different flappers just a kohler toilet flappers that don't last 1 year. pressure flush toilets that explode toilet seats that have steel bolts that rust off into a 1 pc. toilet.

                      i can keep going but you see the point.

                      toto just about has it right. they switched that plastic flapper assy with rubber, blue or red. all they need to do now is get rid of the hunter ballcock and install a fluidmaster.

                      i love the 10'' and 14'' sub base assy.

                      glad to see that you love this trade and feel the same way about it too. too many so called plumbers are in it for the quick money and not the profession.

                      stick around and you'll have as much fun reading this forum as you will responding to them

                      i think dirtyhands/ adam can attest to that

                      rick.
                      phoebe it is

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Which size should I go with?????

                        Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                        robert, you're correct about the american standard champion, but i've only had 1 with a bad washer. home depot sells the toilets and the gaskets. about $4.50

                        i'm not a kohler fan. i feel that most of their products are way overrated. also they do a very poor job in the research and development department.
                        with all the new construction i did and all the service i do now, i can see the long term effects and even short term problems they have

                        too many to list but how would you like to stock 12 different flappers just a kohler toilet flappers that don't last 1 year. pressure flush toilets that explode toilet seats that have steel bolts that rust off into a 1 pc. toilet.

                        i can keep going but you see the point.

                        toto just about has it right. they switched that plastic flapper assy with rubber, blue or red. all they need to do now is get rid of the hunter ballcock and install a fluidmaster.

                        i love the 10'' and 14'' sub base assy.

                        glad to see that you love this trade and feel the same way about it too. too many so called plumbers are in it for the quick money and not the profession.

                        stick around and you'll have as much fun reading this forum as you will responding to them

                        i think dirtyhands/ adam can attest to that

                        rick.
                        So glad you found and joined Robert,I wasn't working in when I found this forum,so I could spend hours day upon day reading over what these guy had to say about there passion for their trade,and not just plumbers.I was losing faith in my fellow tradesmen,I can only find 1 in 25 that push to the best that should be done.You live in So. Calif so you must know what I'm talking about.

                        My favorite is Ricks thread is on unqualified plumbers,inspectors and AAHHH I forgot the rest.Dog, Utah, and someone I am so sorry I never had a chance to converse with "PLUMBER" and other GOOD posters had me hooked.If you have a chance check it out,just enter unqaulified in search mode,it's pretty close to the top of the column.

                        This is a place where people care about what they do time after time,to say the least about any question I may have allways comes here first.

                        Thank you for joining, it has strenghtened the forum even more

                        Adam

                        P.S. Yes,that shadow you see out there beyond the treeline,that "is" a dog he keeps the perimeter clear so we can go about our buisiness
                        Last edited by drtyhands; 05-10-2007, 11:24 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Which size should I go with?????

                          Adam,

                          Thank you very much for reffering me to that thread,very,very good.I wish we can bring the industry back up to the standards that dog,plumber rick,toutah and numerous others require .
                          thanks again
                          sigpic

                          Robert

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Which size should I go with?????

                            Okay wow what a response well I've been there for a one year this has been a problem for about six months.The basement bathroom was not used up until oh about 6 months ago lol.Also not there is NO paper towles in either bathroom.Sometimes I bring back stuff & sometimes I don't.When I do it's toliet paper white mice and loose leaf paper.Jetted just about every time it backed up.All 1.6gpf toliets.



                            Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                            newbee, a camera should be able to tell you how the slope/ grade is of the pipe. with a little bit of flow down the line, you should be able to see if there are dips or offsets. since the problem is recent, this brings up some more questions.

                            how long have you been working there and what is the track record you've found?

                            what does it take to clean out and how many feet does it take to get it to flow?

                            do you bring back anything on the cable?

                            have you tried jetting?

                            are these 1.6gpf toilets new to the school? did they replace existing 3.5gpf toilets?

                            changing to a larger line might not solve your problem. it's not a fixture unit issue.

                            what i've found in similar situations, such as stacking powder rooms with 1.6gpf. toilets and sinks is a soft paper stoppage. 1.6 gpf. doesn't have the line carrying distance like the older 3.5. could it be that since it's only being used for waste and paper, that the stoppage is caused by lack of clean water helping to wash the line and carry the paper, waste into a common sewer.

                            i've had a couple of buildings in a condo building that had this issue. both were 4 stacking powder rooms. both are newer buildings. one building has approx. 80' of horizontal 4'' waste pipe before it tied into a common line that had other fixtures, like showers and laundry. the other building had approx. 50' of horizontal piping.

                            since both building were new, with the piping suspended from the parking garage, it was pretty simple to check grade. i even ran a camera into the 80' line to check for construction debris. all looked fine.

                            what eventually happened was i convinced the owners of the condo's to flush prior to using the toilet and to flush again after the real flush. so that made 3 flushes for a #2 use if it was a male with a #1, then 1 flush was fine.

                            the issue was the lack of clean water washing all the paper and waste into the common main to carry it out the building.

                            if this is a school, it might be ruff to get them to go easy on the paper and double flush. schools are exempt from the 1.6 gpf. toilets out here. they use the 3.5 with good results.

                            fill in the blanks on my original questions, and it will answer the mystery.

                            rick.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Which size should I go with?????

                              Originally posted by Newbee View Post
                              Also not there is NO paper towels in either bathroom.Sometimes I bring back stuff & sometimes I don't.When I do it's toilet paper white mice and loose leaf paper.Jetted just about every time it backed up.All 1.GP toilets.
                              newbee, toilet paper is fine. but the white mice and loose leaf paper has to stop.

                              i would still look with a camera to determine if there is an issue with pipe or fittings somewhere down the line. if it all looks good, the 3.5gpf should help with the wrong things going down the drain.

                              other than eliminating the toilets, there is no way to stop kids from flushing this stuff

                              rick.
                              phoebe it is

                              Comment

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