Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Piggyback required? Can I direct wire?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Piggyback required? Can I direct wire?

    I recently purchased an SSP-1000 which has a water sensor with a piggyback plug to connect the pump into in series. (I had an SP-500 direct wired previously, but the switch failed)

    My question: Can I bypass the piggy back plug and direct wire the water sensor and pump? Unfortunatly the electrician only provided direct wire to my outdoor sump which is connected to the GFI outlet in the crawl space. Believe it or not, my sump collects the rain from our downspouts, and from the driveway and pumps it out to the drainage ditches. Since my Sump is outside the electrician has an on off switch (powered by GFI in the crawlspace) which is attached to the side of the house that supplies the power to the sump pump.

    * If I direct wire, how will the pump know when to turn on/off?
    * Is there another direct wiring method that will allow this to work?

    Any thoughts appreciated!
    Thanks
    Jeff
    Last edited by jeffmit; 05-27-2007, 06:58 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Piggyback required? Can I direct wire?

    You are correct, if you direct wire it, the pump will run until it over heats and will shut itself off. You will need an outlet as far as I know, but I may stand corrected!!
    Proud To Be Union!!

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Piggyback required? Can I direct wire?

      Thank you Aaron for your quick reply. I am hoping there is a wiring work around that will allow this.

      I saw somewhere online that Zoeller pumps with a separate wire for the water sensor (single sensor) allow you to direct wire the sensor and the power connector.

      Any other ideas appreciated.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Piggyback required? Can I direct wire?

        I know barely enough to get by as far as wiring up garbage disposals, and floats. I do know a fair amount as fair about wiring up well pumps and well tanks. My question to you would be, if he hard wired it in, how come you can't install a outlet there? Sorry I took so long on this reply, there's just bad thunderstorms around here(Maryland) and I had my computer off.
        Last edited by Aaron91; 05-27-2007, 08:19 PM.
        Proud To Be Union!!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Piggyback required? Can I direct wire?

          First I have never seen the pump, but according to web site page, it has a built in switch of some type.

          Capacitive Water Sensor - Monitors sump levels and automatically turns pump on or off. On Level = 8" Off Level = 4"
          http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/SSP1000-...Pump/index.htm

          I am sure one could cut off the plug and hard wire it in, (not sure about the pumps warranty tho), and the pump should work as designed, but I guess my question is why not have a receptacle suitable for wet locations wired in and be done with it. Much easier to test it out if some type of failure occurred.

          ... based on the 2005 NEC.

          Q. What are the requirements for installing 15A or 20A receptacles in wet locations?

          A. All 15A and 20A receptacles in wet locations must be placed within an enclosure that's weatherproof and remains weatherproof when an attachment plug is inserted in the receptacle [406.8(B)] (Fig. 1). According to Art. 100, a wet location would be an area subject to saturation with water or an unprotected location exposed to weather.
          http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_stumped_code_20/
          image below from same url,
          I am not sure exactly what you mean the GFCI plug is in the crawl space.
          Is the GFCI plug reset in the craw space, or in other words if it trips do you have to crawl down under the house to reset it? If that is the situation I would think it would be best to move the GFCI plug to a better location so it could be easier to reset if need, most plugs can be daisy chained off the down side of the GFCI plug and the down stream plugs are GFCI protected, If it is a GFCI breaker in the box and can be easily reset then no worry.

          I am not sure what your meaning by piggy back either, but if your asking if you can use an external switch, by what I see in the web page, since the switch is an integrated part of the pump, my guess is you would have to rewire the pump to by pass the existing switch system, and and what that would in-tale and if you would break any water proof seals I don't know.
          But my guess is this is not the pump that would be best suited to an external switch, but I am sure any thing is possible.

          Even if you want to use a separate switch there are switches that plug in and have a receptacle on the back side to plug in the pump into, and if you would change out to a hard wire pump in the future, you could have a extra box wired for a splice box beside the receptacle outlet, or have the switch hard wired into the box switching the receptacle's outlet, (most duplex outlets are designed that they can be separately feed and have one side that that would be live all the time and one switched, if you ever wanted to go that direction.

          switches are usually the first point of failure on sump pumps.

          Piggy back float type switch second image for plug in use.
          Attached Files
          Last edited by BHD; 05-27-2007, 11:00 PM.
          Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
          attributed to Samuel Johnson
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Piggyback required? Can I direct wire?

            Thank you BHD for your quick and informative reply. I will include my answers to your questions.

            Our Sump is outdoors and is ~ 8' deep x 18" wide opening.

            History:-( Our Sump was originally designed to take on our water from our downspouts and sent it into our 'drainfield' underground/rocks in our back yard, but here in the Northwest our 'drainfield' has the reverse effect in fall/winter where it (the 'drainfield') actually accumulates water from the soil and trickles water into our Sump pit (instead of the sump draining into the 'drainfield').

            I don't believe the pump itself has a switch to turn on and off, the Water Sensor (attached to the pump with the piggyback plug) turns the pump on and off via the sensors.

            The electricians tapped into an existing GFI outlet in our kitchen where the reset switch is located (via the crawl space) and ran the outdoor wire in conduit / underground to a switch to turn it off and on (for maintenance) and then ran the wire in conduit to the Sump pit outside to a 2 Gang Waterproof box. The box has 2 holes in the sides for the original sump design which had a Float and the Pump.

            Piggyback: meaning the Water sensor / Switch has a plug and a 'piggyback' receptical on the reviese side to plug the Pump into the same outlet. I assume this allows the water sensor switch to throttle the pump on and off as needed?

            My concern with having an outlet inside the sump pit (naive) there is water from the lawn/groundwater that can drain from the top opening of the sump and potentially into the outlet. Right now the 2G box is enclosed with silacone / rubber grommet and the power plug for the pump is also protected where it enters the 2G box with rubber grommets.

            Perhaps there is an outlet that will work in the sump itself, perhaps I can check Home Depot or ?

            PICTURES:
            Attached Files
            Last edited by jeffmit; 05-28-2007, 01:02 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Piggyback required? Can I direct wire?

              The pictures help a lot, and now I see the situation,

              Yes you should be able to direct wire the unit into the box, the plugs are all ready cut off, you really don't have much choice that I see but to hard wire it now,

              NO I would not put a receptacle into the sump it self either,
              but I don't think I my first choice would be to put a box in the sump either, even it it was rated water proof, but then there may not be a choice with depth and so forth and length of cords.


              Like I said I have only seen pictures of the pump, but it appears the level switch is on the side of the pump, and from your picture it appears that the wire that the switch is attached to was or is plastic wire ties to the pump power cord,

              I am guessing your real question is how do I wire it up? not actually can it be done.

              NOTE: I AM GUESSING HERE:

              but I would guess that there is two wires on the switch wire, (Where the piggy back plug is/was) (possibly three) making the guess they used standard cord to manufacture the wire out of, I would have a guess there is a black and white and a green wire, in it, (if there is a green wire it goes to the ground screw if there is one, and to a ground wire {bare wire in the power cable}.
              this is the switch,
              the black wire from the switch should go to the power cables black wire in the box, the other insulated wire (black, red or white) should go to the black wire on the pump cord, the white wire on the pump cord to the white wire from the power cable in the box, and the green wire to the ground or bare wire in the box.

              Make sure the box is properly resealed up to be water proof,
              Attached Files
              Last edited by BHD; 05-28-2007, 09:34 AM.
              Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
              attributed to Samuel Johnson
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Piggyback required? Can I direct wire?

                I you have an doubt on what to do or how to do it, hire some one who is qualified to do the job correctly and safely, do not take a chance of mixing water and electricity,
                Last edited by BHD; 07-31-2007, 08:54 AM.
                Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                attributed to Samuel Johnson
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Piggyback required? Can I direct wire?

                  Thanks BHD, I tried wiring it using the diagram you kindly provided. Unfortunately it trips the GFI switch, however when I direct wire the pump alone (without the water sensor switch) the pump works like a champ

                  Any other ideas? Perhaps I will wait until tomorrow and ask Rigid support - hopefully they will know...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Piggyback required? Can I direct wire?

                    like I said, I was guessing, and would think the switch would jsut be on or off, and if it was tripping the GFCI something apparently on the switch side of the wiring was leaking current.
                    but I was jsut guessing on my experience on other items that I have worked on, in the past.

                    NO I don't have any more Ideas at this time. with out being there and seeing what the actual situation is,
                    Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                    attributed to Samuel Johnson
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Piggyback required? Can I direct wire?

                      Well, GRRRRRRRRR. According to Ridgid, they can not provide instructions on how to direct wire this switch. Very frustrating! Further they said I will "void the warranty if I cut the plugs" I did not see that listed in their manual or on the box...

                      Frustrated... I guess I will have to look elsewhere, and I will be forced to return this to where I purchased it since I asked them before I purchased it if if I can direct wire this like my old pump (500 model)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Piggyback required? Can I direct wire?

                        Originally posted by jeffmit View Post
                        I recently purchased an SSP-1000 which has a water sensor with a piggyback plug to connect the pump into in series. (I had an SP-500 direct wired previously, but the switch failed)

                        My question: Can I bypass the piggy back plug and direct wire the water sensor and pump? Unfortunatly the electrician only provided direct wire to my outdoor sump which is connected to the GFI outlet in the crawl space. Believe it or not, my sump collects the rain from our downspouts, and from the driveway and pumps it out to the drainage ditches. Since my Sump is outside the electrician has an on off switch (powered by GFI in the crawlspace) which is attached to the side of the house that supplies the power to the sump pump.

                        * If I direct wire, how will the pump know when to turn on/off?
                        * Is there another direct wiring method that will allow this to work?

                        Any thoughts appreciated!
                        Thanks
                        Jeff
                        If the plug has been taken off, put another one on and check this out:
                        http://www.deanbennett.com/zoellerfloatswitches.htm

                        That type of switch will cycle your pump for you. To set the levels just tie wrap the cord so its shorter or longer to adjust the height level to shut off.

                        I think this will work if I understand your plight.

                        Clato

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Piggyback required? Can I direct wire?

                          use an ohm meter and see if there any leakage on the switch from either the white wire or the black wire to the green ground,

                          another test is, do not hook the ground wire up on the switch, and see if that trips the GFCI then if it doesn't the switch is faulty or has a leak possible in it, (since it was doing it before hooked up) If that is the case I suggest to replace the switch. (what it shows is that when the switch ground is hooked up power flowing on the ground and not back on the neutral wire, by disconnecting the ground it gives no place for the power to flow back on, but what your testing is if the switch is faulty,

                          the other test idea, is to use wire nuts and rewire the cords back together and test it with the plugs on and see how that works, (since you know the pump works) you could jsut work with the switch and use a lamp or drop cord, (plug in to a outlet that GFIC protected and see if it works with plug on)

                          (I have a guess like said before how the wiring is inside of the piggy back plug, but without Cutting/taking it apart and seeing what they did I can only guess),


                          how a GFCI works,
                          http://home.howstuffworks.com/question117.htm/printable
                          a much more technical description,
                          http://www.codecheck.com/gfci_principal.htm

                          In simple it monitors the electricity going out on the black wire and the power coming back in on the white wire and if it is not the same it trips, so when it trips it is sensing that some of the electricity is either flowing back on the grounded green wire, or some other place (you, the frame of the pump, the earth it self, the water in the pit etc).

                          and in this case if it is flowing on the green wire there is a fault in the switch, and needs to submitted,

                          (I know you all ready know this but if you do replace the switch test it on a GFIC outlet before modifying, or buy one for a hard wire installation).

                          http://www.goulds.com/pdf/IM105R02.pdf
                          See page 6 of the above URL the basic same wiring diagram I drew up,

                          http://www.do-it-yourself-pumps.com/...mps-page17.pdf
                          and again it jsut may be the nature of how they made the switch, as if you look at the url it talks about some differences of how some switches are made, so some can be hard wired in and some can not.
                          Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                          attributed to Samuel Johnson
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Piggyback required? Can I direct wire?

                            Thank you again BHD, I truly appreciate your willingness to provide support. I even printed up your pretty diagram and took it to Home Depot yesterday, they also confirmed that 'should work'.

                            I came back home with confidence that perhaps I mis-wired it (you never know), but to my disappointment it still didnt work. Then I tried to reverse the the black connected to the white, and changed it to the opposite and reconfigred the other wires. No luck. Then I wire tied it back to the plugs and --- it worked!

                            I have no idea... I ended up taking it back since even HD said it should work.

                            I will do some research, perhaps I can figure out how to get a waterproof outlet inside the box / perhaps running an 8 foot outdoor extension cord 12/3 connected to my gfi circuit? Then I can put it all in a outdoor weatherproof 6x6x4 box and seal the electrical connections up with mastic tape and then silicone the box closed.

                            I may swing by platt electric, maybe they have an idea?

                            Anyways, thanks again for your help! Much appreciated.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Piggyback required? Can I direct wire?

                              out here in los angeles, we do not use a gfi on pumps. this is a definite purpose outlet and a gfi is too iffy on a pump.

                              it's not just me doing this, it's the electricians on the jobs.

                              although cutting the end of a cord off, to pull through the conduit poses no hazard, it does void the warranty. moisture could wick through the open cord end and end up in the pump. all a piggy back cord does is act as a switch leg. the neutral and ground should just pass through and the hot should have the break that separates the line from the load via the switch.

                              the nice feature of a piggy back cord is that it is simple to test the pump from the float and also allow you to pump the water down to a low level for testing and cleaning.

                              do not have the electrical connections in the pit. do not have it plugged into a gfi. at least this is how it's done out here.

                              other brands of pumps have longer cords. i also replace cords on new pumps to a longer one and have never had an issue or a leak

                              check with your licensed electrician to confirm my reply.

                              rick.
                              phoebe it is

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X