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  • Trenchless or Pipe bursting

    Hi Guys, Do any of you do trench less sewer liners or pipe bursting. If so what material or brand are you using. Do you like it, what was the upfront or total cost ( if you don't mind disclosing ). How do you charge and what do you charge. If you had the choice between direct repair or lining or pipe bursting what would be your choice. Does the product sell it self or do you have to push it on your customers. Please elaborate.
    THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

  • #2
    Re: Trenchless or Pipe bursting

    crappy, i bought a pipe bursting machine 5 years ago.

    since i don't sell unnecessary repairs/ work. the machine has not paid for itself. with an outlay of almost 50k. machine, butt fusion machine for the hdpe pipe. trailer, horizontal boring equipment, and alot of blood, sweat and tears. not to mention alot of b.s. by the manufacturer and his unkept promises.

    i wouldn't suggest it at this time.

    i know that there are alot of people doing this type of work. both trenchless pipe bursting and relining. the majority of the jobs i see are not necessary.

    just because a pipe has roots, doesn't mean that it needs to be replaced, relined.

    if you're really interested in getting into this work. mrs seat down and i will be glad to sell you a slightly used trenchless machine with all the goodies. mrs seat down will even show you how to properly assemble it, and operate it.

    the 2 of us can do the entire job. i'm the beast that has to move it around and she's the beauty that operates it and pulls off the job

    relining only works with a properly cleaned line that is in pretty good condition. any offset will be duplicated by the liner.

    pipe bursting is more work, but it doesn't require a good line. it totally replaces the existing pipe with hdpe.

    unfortunately others are just out to sell jobs and don't worry about educating the consumer. i've had other companies tell me not to tell the owner the line is ok to use. trying to sell them a new sewer. i tell the other company that i'm not interested in their work. hence why i don't do as many jobs as others do.

    joey can use a little vacation. san diego has got to be cooler than here.

    rick.
    phoebe it is

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    • #3
      Re: Trenchless or Pipe bursting

      Hi John,

      Permaliner is a huge distributor of liner material. I don't own the machine, but when I worked for a company that did, we made alot of money the first year, then 2 things happened, one, everyone started doing it, and two, the cities, especially manhattan beach, do not want it installed in the street, they want it dug up, so check with your city and make sure they won't give you grief when you go to pull a permit. I personally wouldn't do it now because everyone is doing it and there will always be someone less expensive and customers are price checking it constantly. not sure how big your crew is, you need atleast two guys trained in liners, plus a trailer or a truck outfitted for it. If you make a mistake blowing it into the line, you have to dig in the street, make sure you are C-42 licensed, (sanitation) whats nice about permaliner over the pull or butt fusion, is that you can dig the 6 x 4, blow a 6" liner and then turn the equipment and blow a 4", complete sewer rehabilitation in 1-2 days, plus inspection. butt fusion is nice, but unlike the liner, you need 2 points of penetrationHole A to set up the pipe, and Hole B to set up the ram or pull machine. cheaper then the liner. call me if you have more questions. with the pull machine, I pulled a 3" main through the bedroom window approx 70" under the slab, through the old cast, and cut to make my branch ties, I have pictures, it was great, now, flip side, when we first attempted this, we lifted the side of the house, the head became stuck in the footing, we had to break out both sides of the slab, then break out around the head, it won't always fit through the hole of the footing
      Last edited by westcoastplumber; 07-04-2007, 12:36 AM.
      sigpic

      Robert

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      • #4
        Re: Trenchless or Pipe bursting

        I don't plan on buying any equipment in the near future or for that matter in the distant future. I was just curious , because I subbed out a liner job today. This was the second job in about 3 or so years. The only reason I referred the customer to liner is because of access. The home is 3 stories with the bottom story below ground level from the front of the home. In this situation I think the liner was the right choice. To dig the line up it would have been double or even triple the cost and thats without concrete or landscape repair. The only time I would consider liner or pipe bursting would be in situations similar to this . where the cost of surface repairs would just be astronomical.

        Oh in case you are wondering the house was built in 1927. The original cast iron main is about 12 feet deep and has about 8 different areas with root intrusions. This is over a span of 30 feet with a total length of 44 feet. Other than the roots the pipe is in good shape. I suggested to the home owner this process before the line collapses.
        Last edited by Crappy days; 07-04-2007, 01:07 AM.
        THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

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        • #5
          Re: Trenchless or Pipe bursting

          Robert, can you post the pics? Never done or seen this type of work before. Thanks
          Buy cheap, buy twice.

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          • #6
            Re: Trenchless or Pipe bursting

            If you wouldn't mind, I'd like too see some pictures as well. I've heard of this type of work, but have not seen it or done it.
            Proud To Be Union!!

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            • #7
              Re: Trenchless or Pipe bursting

              Originally posted by Aaron91 View Post
              If you wouldn't mind, I'd like too see some pictures as well. I've heard of this type of work, but have not seen it or done it.
              Not sure if pic will work,gotta ask my wife

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              Last edited by westcoastplumber; 07-04-2007, 11:11 AM.
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              Robert

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              • #8
                Re: Trenchless or Pipe bursting

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                Robert

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                • #9
                  Re: Trenchless or Pipe bursting

                  Great pics Robert. I think I got the idea from what I saw but how do you ensure the right slope? Are there any web sites for me to learn more about the process. All the sites I saw were mostly for homeowners.
                  Buy cheap, buy twice.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Trenchless or Pipe bursting

                    Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
                    Great pics Robert. I think I got the idea from what I saw but how do you ensure the right slope? Are there any web sites for me to learn more about the process. All the sites I saw were mostly for homeowners.

                    that is the one bad thing, you cannot guarantee grade at all. We had a DHL move into a large building, the sewer kept backing up, approx, 500 employees, I was out there 3-4 times every 7 days with a hydro jetter. Lack of c/o's and the line was over 300 feet long. I ran my camera, found out that the sewer ran lessthen 1% to negative 2% in some places Before DHL moved in, they had the building remodeled, as builts were wrong, someone dropped the ball and added bathrooms on a very poor main drain, DHL ships 24/7, constant movement, large shipping hub, we were unable to trench out this section without getting in engineers and much planning, so to give the owner of the property time to get all his ducks in a row, and DHL the needed time to prepare, we pulled 280' of the 300' line, to the exterior, made 3 holes, and pulled 100' at a time, installed c/o's every 100', finished in 1 night, 6pm-7am, cleaned up by 8:30, bought the company 3 months to plan, they paid me to go over 2 times a week and monitor the building drain, it was flat and negative in places, running half full, but still draining, no stoppage for those 3 months. sdr17 is smooth inside, so it will drain flat like ABS and Plastic, it just dosen't self scour the pipe. One thing about butt fusion, when you fuse the pipe toghether, you get a lip inside, it is a small lip, but a lip, dosen't seem to affect the drainage properties and is IAPMO and UPC approved, never had any problems getting it inspected.
                    Last edited by westcoastplumber; 07-04-2007, 01:28 PM.
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                    Robert

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                    • #11
                      Re: Trenchless or Pipe bursting

                      I was thinking about getting it to this kind of work last year but my better thinking told me it dosent work. If you have a large root pushing in on the sewer, that root will always be there unless you dig it up and remove it. If theres a drop any where in the line it will still be there. What ever problem the line has will always be there. A linner is just a copy of whats already there.

                      Bursting is also a joke because of the same problems. You burst the line and that big a$$ root moves over a little and a year or so later it`s back pushing on the sewer.

                      Just say "NO" to Trenchless!



                      Before anyone says it, YES there are times when it can work. Like rusted cast but it seems that the trenchless guy`s try to sale the work on every job and it just dosent work that way

                      You just cant replace the man on some things.
                      Last edited by All Clear Sewer; 07-04-2007, 02:18 PM.
                      http://www.all-clear-sewer.com/

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                      • #12
                        Re: Trenchless or Pipe bursting

                        I use trenchless and I also will use the excavator to replace the lateral,just depends on the problem.If the line is going down a steep hill it would be stupid to dig it up,pipebursting is the answer.Up here the inspector wants to be present for pre and post camera of the line,if any bellies exist we dig it up.If I am to replace to the city trunk and it's 21 feet deep and 95 feet long,I would rather only dig 2 holes and pipeburst than to trench the whole thing,get rid of all the dirt,bring in rock or slurry for the entire length of the trench,not to mention the extra shoring,trenchplates,traffic control,.Some instances trenching is not worth it

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                        • #13
                          Re: Trenchless or Pipe bursting

                          Originally posted by westcoastplumber View Post
                          . One thing about butt fusion, when you fuse the pipe together, you get a lip inside, it is a small lip, but a lip, doesn't seem to affect the drainage properties and is IAPMO and UPC approved, never had any problems getting it inspected.
                          robert, we are suppose to ream the fused butt joint

                          you never ream i always ream

                          rick.

                          all clear, if there is a big root pressing on the existing line , the bursting head will offset to get around it. just like how i can pull around a 45 fitting. the pull will basically absorb small offsets. whereas in pipe lining, what you start with is what you end with. if there is a bad section, then you mimic the line with the liner.

                          i feel that bursting is a much better process than a liner. the new sdr17 pipe is bullet proof. i always take a 4'' sample and hit it with a 10# sledge hammer while on the ground. try that with anything else

                          rick.
                          phoebe it is

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                          • #14
                            Re: Trenchless or Pipe bursting

                            I think both of these forms of repair have their place. There are allot of homes in San Diego that have proper grade. They are just have old cast or clay with deterioration allowing root intrusion. The only thing is it seems as though in most cases they cost as much as I charge for trenching and repair. The contractor I subbed this to is one of the less expensive ones. He still quoted 5,950.00 and this is without having to dig. The total length of liner will be about 34 '. He will also be replacing approx 6 ' of 4" cast iron and fittings to ABS. When I asked how long the job would take he said one long day.

                            Don't get me wrong I'm not disputing the price as the equipment is not cheap. Although if this was a regular one level lot. I would have bid it about the same to trench and repair. The total job is running 6,500.00 this is including the 10 percent referral fee I will receive.
                            Last edited by Crappy days; 07-04-2007, 07:44 PM.
                            THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

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                            • #15
                              Re: Trenchless or Pipe bursting

                              Originally posted by Crappy days View Post
                              I think both of these forms of repair have their place. There are allot of homes in San Diego that have proper grade. They are just have old cast or clay with deterioration allowing root intrusion. The only thing is it seems as though in most cases they cost as much as I charge for trenching and repair. The contractor I subbed this to is one of the less expensive ones. He still quoted 5,950.00 and this is without having to dig. The total length of liner will be about 34 '. He will also be replacing approx 6 ' of 4" cast iron and fittings to ABS. When I asked how long the job would take he said one long day.

                              Don't get me wrong I'm not disputing the price as the equipment is not cheap. Although if this was a regular one level lot. I would have bid it about the same to trench and repair.
                              should have called me, i would have been under $2000.

                              and yes, i have been hired to work in san diego. just charge a travel charge.

                              rick.
                              phoebe it is

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