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  • #31
    Re: plumbing design in high rise

    Originally posted by plumbdog10 View Post
    Gearhead, I thought it was a good question. Maybe I'm dumb, but I was interested. We all can't be geniuses from Mars like butter.
    When it comes to plumbing I'd say no.
    In other area's...well...

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: plumbing design in high rise

      Dog,

      He is in Massachutes which has their own Plumbing Code. My guess is his Instructor was pulling someones leg when he made the comment about the offset. He also posted he only works on low-rise so I'm sure this never came up.

      Mark
      Last edited by ToUtahNow; 07-12-2007, 12:49 AM.
      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: plumbing design in high rise

        i can also tell you from all my camera inspections, that the waste water tends to cling to the walls of the pipe. i think it's called cohesion

        there will always be water that free falls, but proper support under the vertical riser is required. we typically use channel. sometimes a 1/2 riser clamp.

        rick.
        phoebe it is

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: plumbing design in high rise

          Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
          You guys really do need to go check out the clear PVC waste lines at the Las Vegas Plumbing Union Hall/School. The water clings to the side of the pipe not down the middle. Because of the fruiction it will only reach a certain velocity and then stall.

          I have two projects in Las vegas right now which are each 45-story Sovent systems.

          Mark
          Again Mark is right on this one. I've never had to offest stacks to slow the water down. That's just silly. It does on its own by swirling down the inside of the pipe and it follows the same path. We have a 10 story height limit in D.C. (no building shall be taller than the Nations Capital) but I don't see how it would be any different for a 40 story building.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: plumbing design in high rise

            Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
            Dog,

            He is in Massachutes which has their own Plumbing Code. My guess is his Instructor was pulling someones leg when he made the comment about the offset. He also posted he only works on low-rise so I'm sure this never came up.

            Mark
            Mark, he wasn't.
            I'm not going to back up bad info, couldn't find it on the source I referred you to, but that isn't the complete code, I'll have to make some time to look it up from the true source. (stays in my truck for disgruntled inspectors who like to invent rules)
            As for my old instructor, he isn't the only plumber I'd spoken about regarding this.
            It could very well turn out to be some kinda "old wives tale", lets face it...not every mom n' pop plumber does highrises.
            But then, you guys reaction to our lack of use for purple primer was symbolic of our differences. (it's not frowned on...just seen as silly to use where no-one calls for it)
            I WILL say this however...regardless of insult, I'm glad I joined.
            This is the VERY thing I'd come here looking for...I could care less if I'm wrong, if I learned something in the process.
            As a sole, self employed plumber this place is great...even if some might need a dose of humor.
            For those who want more detailed info posted...I tend to shy away from it...ask any credit specialist, or skip tracer, how much personal info can be obtained through public records from the smallest amount of information.
            (name, DOB, location...occupation even better)
            I tend to shy away from disclosing too much of that info online...but you regulars know enough about me to feel comfy...hopefully.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: plumbing design in high rise

              Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
              Mark, he wasn't.
              I'm not going to back up bad info, couldn't find it on the source I referred you to, but that isn't the complete code, I'll have to make some time to look it up from the true source. (stays in my truck for disgruntled inspectors who like to invent rules)
              As for my old instructor, he isn't the only plumber I'd spoken about regarding this.
              It could very well turn out to be some kinda "old wives tale", lets face it...not every mom n' pop plumber does highrises.
              But then, you guys reaction to our lack of use for purple primer was symbolic of our differences. (it's not frowned on...just seen as silly to use where no-one calls for it)
              I WILL say this however...regardless of insult, I'm glad I joined.
              This is the VERY thing I'd come here looking for...I could care less if I'm wrong, if I learned something in the process.
              As a sole, self employed plumber this place is great...even if some might need a dose of humor.
              For those who want more detailed info posted...I tend to shy away from it...ask any credit specialist, or skip tracer, how much personal info can be obtained through public records from the smallest amount of information.
              (name, DOB, location...occupation even better)
              I tend to shy away from disclosing too much of that info online...but you regulars know enough about me to feel comfy...hopefully.


              It's ok duckie!!

              Everyone had their run-ins with Bulldog

              Robert is still waiting for his turn

              That's what happens when 2 pasionate people in their trade have different opinion.

              I f you're not passionate about your trade then you are not a good plumber,you just don't care.

              But please just post your location right, it is nice to know where people are from cause of upc/ipc.

              Hope all is good in Boston

              Mrs. Wc
              Last edited by westcoastplumber; 07-12-2007, 05:55 PM.
              sigpic

              Robert

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: plumbing design in high rise

                Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
                Dunno 'bout UPC, but we offset the stack every 20' of drop to slow the fall.
                I'm not trying to be an ***, but you felt the question was stupid. I don't think questions like this are stupid, but I think you shot your mouth off on something that is above your head. Send in the proof, or admit you were wrong.
                the dog

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: plumbing design in high rise

                  Originally posted by plumbdog10 View Post
                  I'm not trying to be an ***, but you felt the question was stupid. I don't think questions like this are stupid, but I think you shot your mouth off on something that is above your head. Send in the proof, or admit you were wrong.

                  No, I restated what I'd been told.
                  I'm not sure how you knew the way I felt...but with your talent I'd get outta plumbing and start a 900 biz....though it might not be very long-lived based on your interpretation of my feeling the question was stupid.
                  and it wasn't my mouth shooting off...if I were shooting my mouth off you'd be whining alot more...or is that possible?
                  Now, be a good dog...SIT!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: plumbing design in high rise

                    Originally posted by plumbdog10 View Post
                    I'm not trying to be an ***, but you felt the question was stupid. I don't think questions like this are stupid, but I think you shot your mouth off on something that is above your head. Send in the proof, or admit you were wrong.
                    Well, did some reading today...finally had a day off.
                    I don't mean to dredge this "fun" topic up, but for future reference I will NOT by shy about "shooting my mouth off" when it comes to something I beleive to be true, and I WON'T feel foolish when corrected.
                    One of the first things I learned (all of us should have) is that you NEVER know everything there is to know in plumbing.
                    I'm here for a reason...to exchange idea's, maybe teach a thing or two, maybe learn a thing or two.
                    More importantly, make a few like minded friends along the way.
                    WON'T be discouraged from that by being told I've shot my mouth off.

                    So far I found NO reference to 45 offsets in highrise stacks, this could mean several things....it's outdated, I didn't look hard enough, it's categorized under engineering, or it's an inside "trade secret" for commercial Plumbers.
                    Thinking of the fact that you have a 40 story building that say, all of the forty floors suddenly decide to flush all at once..I'm no engineer, but the "doughnut" effect may be nullified by an extreme surge of downward volume, leaving no room for an air pocket within the surge.
                    Then there's "terminal velocity" that any skydiver could tell you about (made a movie of it in fact).
                    That comes to roughly 533 pounds (8.33/gal x 1.6 x 40) moving towards a single point at a velocity of somewhere around 200 mph - provided ONLY 1 toilet per floor flushes and they're all 1.6 gpf and NOT older 3gpm. multiply the number by ALL fixtures and there's a point here.
                    We could also debate the friction of the CI's internal surface, but then theres that whole fluid dynamic theory on a sharks rough skin making it faster underwater.
                    I could use simple math to compare it to a 1 ton passenger vehicle by multiplying one figure by 4 and dividing the other by 4...making it a chevy impala moving at 50mph towards a cast iron long sweep 90, but likely the math wouldn't be right, NOT an engineer here.
                    I found two references to offsets in a highrise...both I knew of...they don't imply anything at all as far as the soil stack, but they do rule out the need for venting a 45 and enlarging the stack diameter for a 45 offset on highrises.

                    CMR 248

                    10.15, (8) Sizing of Offsets on Drainage Piping.
                    (a) Offsets of 45E or Less.
                    1. An offset in a vertical stack with a change of direction of 45E or less from the vertical, may be sized as a straight vertical stack.
                    2. In the event of a horizontal branch connects to the stack within two feet above or below the offset, a relief vent shall be installed in accordance with 248 CMR 10.16(5)(c).
                    10.16,
                    (5) Vent Stacks and Stack Vents.
                    , (c) Offsets in Building Five or More Stories.
                    1. Except as provided in 248 CMR 10.15, offsets of more than 45E from the vertical in a soil or waste stack may be vented:
                      1. as two separate soil or waste stacks;
                        1. by installing a relief vent as a vertical continuation of the lower section of the stack; or
                        2. as a side vent connected to the lower section between the offset and the next lower fixture or horizontal branch.
                        3. The upper section of the offset shall be provided with a yoke vent.
                        4. The diameter of the vents shall not be less than the diameter of the main vent, or of the soil and waste stack, whichever is the smaller.
                    Last edited by DuckButter; 07-15-2007, 05:17 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: plumbing design in high rise

                      Duck,

                      Stop looking as you will only get discouraged. I have never plumbed a 40-story building but I sure have worked on a lot of them. If I am looking for the 02 stack Hall Bathroom shower stack it meas it is the shower stack for the Hall Bathroom of Units #102 through #4002. This of course assumes the units are stacked and not altered due to floor plans or suites. I also know if I am running my camera or a snake from an upper floor I'd better hold on tight or the weight of it will free fall straight down the pipe.

                      Another thing to consider when water is falling down the pipe is if it was truely taking the entire pipe your vent would be blocked which would slow the water down plus you would be displacing the air in the vent which would further slow the water down.

                      I am fairly certain if you will find the idea of excessive velocity of water falling in a High Rise is and old plumbers tale or myth.

                      Mark
                      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: plumbing design in high rise

                        I know Dog checked out this link. Did anybody else?

                        http://www.psdmagazine.com/pdf/Sept_Oct_03/56-61.pdf
                        You will never expand your mind, if you do not challenge your beliefs.

                        By the reading of this post, you acknowledge and agree that the poster shall not be responsible or liable, directly or indirectly, for any damage or loss caused or alleged to be caused by or in connection with use of or reliance on any content contained herein.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: plumbing design in high rise

                          Great find
                          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: plumbing design in high rise

                            Hey Honda, great link looks Kinda what I described as far as the running from side to side. Thanks for the new info, I will study it hard
                            sigpic

                            Robert

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: plumbing design in high rise

                              I already did, it shows the reason a 90 degree offset needs to be vented & oversized (in my code on anything over 5 stories, yoke vent over 10)...the constricted flow causes the liquid waste to fill the pipes diameter at the horizontal change.
                              It doesn't show anything aside from 90 offsets over a 12 story drop regarding slowing the downward fall .
                              I'm going to make some calls...this is gonna drive me nuts.
                              I can't imagine an instructor telling a full class this years ago for no reason.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: plumbing design in high rise

                                "The importance of this research is that it conclusively destroys the myth that water falling in a stack from a great height will destroy the fitting at the base of the stack. The velocity at the base of a 100 story stack is only slightly and insignificantly greater than the velocity at the base of a three story stack! There is no scientific reason for limiting the height of a soil or waste stack of any size and the stacks can be run straight down, without offsets for 1000ft or more with the utmost confidence. So called "velocity breaks" (offsets) are absolutley unwarranted and, in fact, could cause excessive pneumatic pressure fluctuations (hydraulic jump) in the stack."
                                You will never expand your mind, if you do not challenge your beliefs.

                                By the reading of this post, you acknowledge and agree that the poster shall not be responsible or liable, directly or indirectly, for any damage or loss caused or alleged to be caused by or in connection with use of or reliance on any content contained herein.

                                Comment

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