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  • #16
    Re: Quick Question

    Originally posted by plumberscrack View Post
    Gear,

    I had the same thing happen to one of my customers. Some genious took the relief out to install a recirc line. Split the heater tank vertically along the seam and even blew out the steel outer jacket. Flooded a finished basement but all survived except the ginea pig.


    Rick,
    I'm taking you off the pedestal I had you on
    that's why i said i was going to play devils advocate.

    what sounds like has happened was an overpressure situation. the heater has a test pressure of 300psi and a working pressure of 150 psi. this being on a new heater in perfect condition.

    now if there was a check valve on the system to keep the thermal expansion from getting back out of the tank, you could easily get over 150psi. especially in a tight system when there is nobody home using the hot water.

    it was not a temperature issue. it was a pressure issue. sure heat caused the thermal expansion, but not heat any higher than the setting of the thermostat.

    i've seen basements get flooded because the relief valve was not piped out of the basement and there was no pump. the plumber didn't take into account thermal expansion and just installed another relief valve. the basement was flooded again.

    relief valves are set to either 125 or 150 psi. in an open system most pressure regulators have a thermal bypass in them. as long as there is no check valve, back flow preventer in the system and the city pressure before the regulator is less than the relief valve setting, there is no reason a relief valve will ever open except for a defective one.

    if you know the facts of the situation/ installation, you will have the knowledge to distinguish right from wrong, safe from dangerous.

    aaron had the knowledge to know right from wrong. did he have the knowledge to know safe form dangerous. did he test the heater for excess pressure or temperature. replacing a relief valve is not necessarily the answer, but typically is the solution as the majority of t&p dripping are due to bad relief valves.

    aaron posted a good question, everyone panicked without discussing all the potentials. i brought up the other side of the issue/ devils advocate.

    now i would like you to tell me how what i brought up would be bad. without knowing a cause and effect how does anyone learn?

    how about the 1000's of heaters that i installed pre 1990(new construction, multiple commercial plumbing inspectors) that don't have a t&p on the heater, but do have it on the system?

    think about it

    even aaron commented on the comments
    phoebe it is

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Quick Question

      Originally posted by mrs. westcoast View Post


      Rick was on the pedestal No way
      i don't like pedestals, they are tuff to work on and most don't have proper backing

      i feel like i'm on the guillotine, chopping block

      rick.
      phoebe it is

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Quick Question

        hi Out There

        this Is To Answer Question, Rick You Are Right Only In Southern Areas Where Doe's Not Freeze Outside, But Outside Relief Valve Was Decided By Code Auth's Not To Be "good" Protection For Water Heaters Due To Temp. "explosion"
        the Problem Here Is Thermal Expansion Due To Ck. Valve,

        As Soon As T & P Valve Was Capped Off Mfg's Warrenity On Water Heater Was Voided!!!

        that Is Why All Codes I Have Seen I.p.c & U,p,c, Reguire Bald End Discharge Pipes To Keep " Stupid People" From Plugging Or Capping End Jerry Mac 30yr. Master Plumber
        JERRYMAC
        E-MAILJERRYMAC777@GMAIL.COM
        CALIF. LIC. PLBG,HEAT,DRAINS,ELECTRIC,WATER HEATER, BOILER, POOL AND SPA HEATER
        FIRE SPRINKLER CONTRACTOR,
        SINCE JAN. 1989

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Quick Question

          Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
          one more note arron. 1 thing you could have done was to take a good pressure reading and a temperature reading on the heater from the bottom hose bibb. at the same time that the t and p is leaking.

          since you're into backflow testing, you should have very accurate gages.

          at least with that info you would be able to determine if it's a bad t & p or a dangerous situation.

          rick.
          On most water heater I replace, there's so much crud on the bottom that the water trickles out of the hose bibb. I usually end up breaking off the hose bibb. Would a psi reading be accurate from the hose bibb?
          Buy cheap, buy twice.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Quick Question

            Originally posted by JERRYMAC View Post
            hi Out There

            this Is To Answer Question, Rick You Are Right Only In Southern Areas Where Doe's Not Freeze Outside, But Outside Relief Valve Was Decided By Code Auth's Not To Be "good" Protection For Water Heaters Due To Temp. "explosion"
            the Problem Here Is Thermal Expansion Due To Ck. Valve,

            As Soon As T & P Valve Was Capped Off Mfg's Warrenity On Water Heater Was Voided!!!

            that Is Why All Codes I Have Seen I.p.c & U,p,c, Reguire Bald End Discharge Pipes To Keep " Stupid People" From Plugging Or Capping End Jerry Mac 30yr. Master Plumber
            THIS IS NOT AGANST ARRON 91 AS HE IS 2ND MAN ON JOB, OMLY DOING WHAY HE WAS TOLD,
            SHUT WTR/HTR OFF GET NEW T & P VALVE "A.S.A.P."
            INFORM BUILDING CONTRACTOR OR HOMEOWNER ABOUT PROBLEM, AND MAKE CORRECTIONS IF NOBODY WILL PAY FOR EXTRA WORK???
            LEAVE WTR/HTR OFF!!! NOTE CONDENTION HTR LEFT IN AND GET HOMEOWNERS TO SIGN YOUR TICKET OR INVIOCE THAT WAS THE WAY WTR/HTR WAS LEFT BY YOU!! THIS PROTECTS BOTH YOU AND YOUR BOSS.
            JERRYMAC
            E-MAILJERRYMAC777@GMAIL.COM
            CALIF. LIC. PLBG,HEAT,DRAINS,ELECTRIC,WATER HEATER, BOILER, POOL AND SPA HEATER
            FIRE SPRINKLER CONTRACTOR,
            SINCE JAN. 1989

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Quick Question

              How true about all the crud in the bottom of water heaters. I bet most heating boilers are a real mess inside too.

              At a friend's place out in the country they have a 40 gallon steel water storage tank on their well system. Every 6 months they open the lower drain valve and loads of *** comes out. It's mostly rusty mud from the iron well casing and sandy like dirt. They also turn off power the night before to their electric water heater and give it a good flushing. People would not believe all the crud that comes out of it.

              Plumbers: Sometime when you replace a water heater, maybe you can cut it open and take some pictures. It's no wonder why the old one is so heavy and the brand new one much lighter. The old one is part full of rusty mud.

              I would try to take temp and pressure at the outlet of the water heater. It would be nice to install a T or 2 and leave in a pressure gauge and thermometer combo.
              Last edited by Woussko; 08-08-2007, 11:54 AM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Quick Question



                This Is For All You Good Guys Out There I Love Reading All Your Posts

                In 1994-1995 Due To Americas Clean Water Act And Inforced By The E.p.a. All Plubic Water Services "" Must Be Protected By One Way Check Valve""
                these Are Usally Installed At The Water Meter By The Water Supplyer As Required!!!!

                So You Must Assume All Problems With Running T & P's
                'might'' Be Caused By This As # One Service Problem.....
                all Water Heater Mfg's Require Thermal Expansion Protection
                As A '' Valid' Part Of Warrenity To Be Honored Any Time You Claim A Leaker Change Out.
                and Upon Inspection By Said Mfg' Your Claim For Reimburstment
                ""can Be Denied''

                Jerrymac
                JERRYMAC
                E-MAILJERRYMAC777@GMAIL.COM
                CALIF. LIC. PLBG,HEAT,DRAINS,ELECTRIC,WATER HEATER, BOILER, POOL AND SPA HEATER
                FIRE SPRINKLER CONTRACTOR,
                SINCE JAN. 1989

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Quick Question

                  Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
                  On most water heater I replace, there's so much crud on the bottom that the water trickles out of the hose bibb. I usually end up breaking off the hose bibb. Would a psi reading be accurate from the hose bibb?
                  The pressure reading would still be accurate even if its partially clogged up with "crud". You just dont have much volume of flow in that situation.

                  It would be something like taking a pressure reading from a 1" tap on the heater versus taking a reading from a 1/4" tap on the same heater. Pressure would be equal.

                  Regards,

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Quick Question

                    Yes The Correct Way To Test For Thermal Expansion Would Be With Pressure Guage,

                    Some Wtr/htr Mfg's Sell One In Their Prts Dept's
                    That Has Two (2) Needles One To Read Current Pressure.
                    Second Red Needle To Reacts To Thermal Expansion
                    So You Can Leave On Overnight To Also Do To Test.

                    If You Have A Building With Tight Fixtures, So Can But Guage On Wtr/htr Drain And ""temporary""" Turn Heater Thromostat Up To A Higher Setting And Watch Press. Guage Rise!!! Be Sure To Resit To Correct Temp. Before Leaving As Otherwise Somebody Could Get "" Scalded!!!!
                    Also At Night Some Times Water Street Pressure Can Go Up As Less Use On Water Mains, Could Cause Thermal Expansion

                    Jerrymac Master Plumber
                    JERRYMAC
                    E-MAILJERRYMAC777@GMAIL.COM
                    CALIF. LIC. PLBG,HEAT,DRAINS,ELECTRIC,WATER HEATER, BOILER, POOL AND SPA HEATER
                    FIRE SPRINKLER CONTRACTOR,
                    SINCE JAN. 1989

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Quick Question

                      If I read correctly I think Arron said there was check valve in the system before the heaters, I don't recall him saying if there as an expansion tank on the line any where, and if there is a check then the system probably needs an expansion tank or if there is an expansion tank check it out to see if it is not ruptured the diaphragm, or water logged.

                      As far as a PSI reading it should be able to be taken any where on the system, washing machine, out side hydrant, or other, if it there is not some other valve or other in the system that would reduce pressure. Anywhere on the piping that is connected you should have the same static pressure.
                      Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                      "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                      attributed to Samuel Johnson
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                      PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Quick Question

                        Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                        it was not a temperature issue. it was a pressure issue. sure heat caused the thermal expansion, but not heat any higher than the setting of the thermostat. Aaron stated the relief valve was "going off" that tells me temperature issue.

                        there is no reason a relief valve will ever open except for a defective one.
                        replacing a relief valve is not necessarily the answer, but typically is the solution as the majority of t&p dripping are due to bad relief valves. That couldn't be farther from the truth.

                        how about the 1000's of heaters that i installed pre 1990(new construction, multiple commercial plumbing inspectors) that don't have a t&p on the heater, but do have it on the system? What safety device is protecting those heaters from excessive temperatures?

                        think about it I am and find your cavalier attitude very disturbing
                        Rick are you feeling ok?

                        Yea I've been called a "safety baby" on more than one occasion but don't listen to me look at some of the other posts from Bob and Woussko and others.

                        Don't try and talk yourself out of this Rick. You are dead to me now. Take a seat and send in Jojo.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Quick Question

                          This has me thinking that maybe water heaters need a "Blow Plug" installed in them that would be hard to tamper with. Excessive temp or pressure and it blows out. This would be a backup (not a replacment) to the standard T&P relief valve. Try if you can to think of a pressure cooker. They have a blow plug that will blow out if you have a runaway fire under it. While far from perfect they have kept some of them from going KaBoom.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Quick Question

                            This job is getting worse and worse guys, I tried to collect as much information as I could, I was going to take pictures, but I forget too, but I did get some other information. There is a 1" main line feeding both heaters, with the gas heater 1st out of the 2, along with a 1" check valve, **there is also a rec. line that ties into the 1" cold line right before tieing into the heater**. I think this is maybe a point/topic to dicuss?!

                            Also we brought a new T&P valve, and it was the short style when we needed the long style, so the 'mechanic' put a cuppling and short nipple on it. I just shook my head and walked away. Also the T&P valve on the electric water heater went off, since the gas one was capped off, which, to me means that the gas heaters T&P wasn't bad? I tried bringing this up and talking about it, but it just was a headache. We are working in Montgomery County, which is under WSSC Codes, which I don't like what so ever, and they don't require expansion tanks, which I basically argued with my 'mechanic' about, I mean he's already told me they're charging 80 +/- grand for the plumbing in these mansions, so whats the 'few extra bucks' to install a expansion tank?! The 'hairy homeowner inspector' also brought it up, which my 'mechanic' whined it's not WSSC code so we don't have to have one. To me, this is when the plumber, or plumbing company should step up to the plate and go beyond 'the call of duty' and install one. But thats just my 2 cents.

                            Rick- There is a near by 'hose bib manifold', basically so in the winter you don't have to run all over this 10,000 square foot home looking for hose bib valves, and on the main line feeding the hose bibs, was reading 85 psi today.

                            Gauges are on my dream tool list, the company's are suppose to supply them, but we don't have any, I hope to own my own set soon.


                            **I thank anyone that read all of this, and has any more input. Somethings tell me that this rec line is so close to the 1st(gas) water heater, it's causing problems.**
                            Proud To Be Union!!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Quick Question

                              ARRON91
                              WATTS MAKES WHAT IT CALLS A GOV. 80 BALLCOCK, 10", 111/2", 121/2" FOR THERMAL EXPANSION. LOOKS JUST LIKE A 1B1 PLASTIC BALLCOCK BUT HAS EXTRA PORT AT TOP TO RELEIF WTR PRESS OVER
                              80 PSI.
                              TO RECERC. LINE TIE-IN SHOULD NOT BE PROBLEM WHERE IT IS. I SEEN AND WORKED ON MANY LIKE THIS AND SOME MFG'S SHOW THIS IN THEIR INSTALL BOOKS
                              IF YOU WANT TO CHECK THIS OUT GO TO ANY MFG'S WEBSITE AND LOOK AT THEIR INSTALL OR SERVICE BOOKS AS I DON'T KNOW WHAT
                              WTR/HTRS ARE SOLD IN YOUR AREA,
                              JERRYMAC
                              E-MAILJERRYMAC777@GMAIL.COM
                              CALIF. LIC. PLBG,HEAT,DRAINS,ELECTRIC,WATER HEATER, BOILER, POOL AND SPA HEATER
                              FIRE SPRINKLER CONTRACTOR,
                              SINCE JAN. 1989

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Quick Question



                                Hey Rick Don't Let Everbody Dump On You, I Can Tell From Your Many Posts You Know A Lot About Plumbi9ng And Drains,

                                I Spent 16 Yrs. In Greater L. A. Area Doing Plumbing, Drains, And Water Heaters For Many Many Mfg's,

                                Currant Ca. Lic. Expired But Working On Renewing When I Can

                                Jerrymac
                                JERRYMAC
                                E-MAILJERRYMAC777@GMAIL.COM
                                CALIF. LIC. PLBG,HEAT,DRAINS,ELECTRIC,WATER HEATER, BOILER, POOL AND SPA HEATER
                                FIRE SPRINKLER CONTRACTOR,
                                SINCE JAN. 1989

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