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  • #31
    Re: Quick Question

    Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
    i don't like pedestals, they are Tiff to work on and most don't have proper backing

    i feel like I'm on the guillotine, chopping block

    rick.
    Besides, if that pedestal is over 6 foot high, you'll need a body harness and a place to connect your lanyard to
    "It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?" Bob D. 2006

    https://www.youtube.com/user/PowerToolInstitute

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Quick Question

      "Would a psi reading be accurate from the hose bibb?"

      Unless it was plugged solid pressure is pressure. You're not moving any water, its a static pressure readings. So as long as there is pressure at the bibb I would think the pressure reading on your test gauge would be accurate. If its plugged to the point where it just drips that won't yield a reliable reading, but otherwise it would be OK.
      "It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?" Bob D. 2006

      https://www.youtube.com/user/PowerToolInstitute

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Quick Question

        Aaron

        I think it's time for you to RUN and get far, far away from the company you're working for now. They are ultra greedy devil beast types. You do not want to work for the devil. There are a few good well run honest (This doesn't mean cheap) plumbing contractors around. Try to find and work for such. You're young and that last thing you need is for customers to hunt you down and make minced meat (bash you to bits) as an act of revenge when something you worked on goes very wrong and results in major property damage or people getting hurt or killed. Save your hide while you still can do so.

        Update: Aaron may well do things as correctly as he can, but with the customer seeing him on the job, if something goes wrong and tempers explode he will be on the recieving end of what's to come. I want him to protect himself as best he can. To me this is the "Money Hungry Greedy Boss" kind of mess where it's about making money and not caring about doing a job the right way or not.
        Last edited by Woussko; 08-08-2007, 09:45 PM.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Quick Question

          Does anyone have a good video showing an electric water heater that's been filled with cool water, been plugged and outfitted with a pressure 0-300 PSI gauge? In the video you start with the gauge reading 0 but then keep the camera on it as power is turned on. A clock with second hand can be seen near the water heater. When the gauge reads 150, power is turned off fast and everyone runs, but the camera runs for another 10 minutes or so.

          Part 2 of the video is the same only a small expansion tank has been installed and fittings changed as needed.

          The pressure gauge is installed using a 3/4 - 1/4 bushing in the port for the T & P relief valve. (Both videos) and the inlet and outlet have plugs in them.


          WARNING: Please do NOT go trying the above to see what happens. Please let only real pros do this and under special controlled conditions and with special safety equipment being used.
          Last edited by Woussko; 08-08-2007, 08:51 PM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Quick Question

            Wow, ok guy's, I see ricks point int he fact that he said it should have been diagnosed better, Everyone brings up very valid points. I spoke with rick on the phone this morning,

            We both agreed that we would not have plugged the line, we carry t&p's on our vans and not having one isn't an excuse, it is my understanding that rick was bringing another side to the story

            As for myself, I agree with what everyone is posting, I personally would never plug the line, but find the problem first.

            Aaron, as far as your co-worker adding a coupling and nipple to the t&p to extend it, he just voided any warrenty there was on the water heater, the probe to the t&p has to be in the tank, you are not allowed to alter the device at anytime, alter any device at any time, it's like cutting alittle off a 1/4 bend or a comby, fittings etc cannot be altered per code. nothing can be altered when manufactured a certain way.

            Just a heads up, it sounds like the guy training you has somebad habits, no worries, as long as you can understand what is correct and what is not.

            I am rambling because of my exaustion, I will say bye now
            sigpic

            Robert

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Quick Question

              Robert Said All The Right Things,
              About T & P Valve. I Thank You Are On The Right Track If You Are Happy To Be Working Where You Are Stay There,
              As Long As You Keep Posting Here To Find Out The Correct Way To Do Jobs???
              You Are Right You Can Not Go Aganst The Bosses Son Or Who Ever Else Is Trying To Teach You!!

              In My Years Of Exp. Training People I Would Not Like Them To Argue With Me On The Job. But!!! I Did Want All Their Questons
              asked Outside At The Truck Or On The Road Where Other People
              would Not Know What Was Being Said, But Keep Posting And I Am Sure Rick, Robert And The Rest Of Us Will Keep You Stright

              Jerrymac Master Plumber
              JERRYMAC
              E-MAILJERRYMAC777@GMAIL.COM
              CALIF. LIC. PLBG,HEAT,DRAINS,ELECTRIC,WATER HEATER, BOILER, POOL AND SPA HEATER
              FIRE SPRINKLER CONTRACTOR,
              SINCE JAN. 1989

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Quick Question

                I, for the most part understand the difference between clean work, and dirty work, honest work, and greedy work, and just flat out ****ed up work, and this topic really bothered me, which is why I brought it up.

                I wouldn't mind leaving, but I worked almost 2 years under the table, meaning I have nothing proving that, then worked doing sewer-water lines at another company for about 8 months, to now this company. Basically I hate job hoppers, and I rather not be one, but I understand everyones point. I'm going for my GED and highly considering the local plumbers union(486), any 'insiders' view/advice on this? I've heard stories from both sides of the fence.

                Thanks for everyones time reading this topic, and replies!
                Proud To Be Union!!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Quick Question

                  Does anyone remember the old Ruud Monel water heaters? I was called out to a job once because of a "racket" in the plumbing. I opened the hot water side of the kitchen faucet and steam rushed out like a high pressure sauna.
                  The gas valve had stuck on and the 1/2" relief valve (common here in Memphis in the 1950's) was completely rusted up. The heater was 35 yrs old. We do not have check valves at the water meters here. I imagine that is the only thing that kept this tank from going through the roof.
                  "Man will do many things to get himself loved, he will do all things to get himself envied." Mark Twain

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Quick Question

                    The Check Valve Is Built Into The Meter Or In The Supply 90% Ell
                    Going Into It. It Would Be Very Unusal If You Did Not Have Some Kind Of Valve??
                    This Is A Backflow Item Per. E. P. A. And Could!! Result In Servere Fines
                    Jerrymac
                    JERRYMAC
                    E-MAILJERRYMAC777@GMAIL.COM
                    CALIF. LIC. PLBG,HEAT,DRAINS,ELECTRIC,WATER HEATER, BOILER, POOL AND SPA HEATER
                    FIRE SPRINKLER CONTRACTOR,
                    SINCE JAN. 1989

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Quick Question

                      thanks jerry and welcome to the forum.

                      glad to see a fellow plumber with an open mind and real job experience on the forum.

                      i think all but a few follow my direction i took. if i didn't bring up the other issues, this topic would have dropped and all the issues that were brought up, would not have been brought up.

                      what really surprises me is that the company doesn't stock a $6.00 t&p valve on the truck a pressure gage, a thermometer and a journeyman plumber.

                      sorry arron, you're not a journeyman and you are an apprentice and only 16. the law stipulates that an apprentice can't work unsupervised. and you're 16, a minor. so if something would have happened, then you would not be legally responsible.

                      now that you've explained some more issues. the inlet pressure is at 85#. this requires a pressure relief valve for the upc anything over 80psi would require a regulator. also with the check valve in the system, an expansion tank would also be required.

                      where was the t&p piped too? couldn't you just let it drip for 1 day till you repaired the system? why an electric and a gas heater? was the electric added to an undersized hot water system?

                      as you noted the second relief valve kicked in that was the owners point and also what i brought up in my earlier post. the pressure will equalize throughout the open sections.

                      now as far as a continuing to work there, i would apply at the local union as their school is going to be much more intense than any school you're employer could send you to. i volunteer 1 day a year for the last 6 years at a local trade school and go over the instructors curriculum. not just me, but 5 local plumbing contractors. also having gone through a 4 year formal union apprenticeship, i can tell you that the union school has much more to teach than the schools run by local phcc's.

                      arron, last point. a doctor without a stethoscope or a blood pressure monitor is no doctor. just like a plumber without a pressure gage or a thermometer is no plumber. this is basic test equipment. buy it

                      lastly, glad to see that most of the posters understand what my "devils advocate" side was meant to do. stir up a real discussion and some debate.

                      sure i took some heat, but it's not the first and certainly won't be the last time dog might be missing, but there's more than 1 dog in the house

                      thanks,

                      rick.
                      phoebe it is

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Quick Question

                        Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                        that's why i said i was going to play devils advocate.

                        what sounds like has happened was an overpressure situation. the heater has a test pressure of 300psi and a working pressure of 150 psi. this being on a new heater in perfect condition.

                        now if there was a check valve on the system to keep the thermal expansion from getting back out of the tank, you could easily get over 150psi. especially in a tight system when there is nobody home using the hot water.

                        it was not a temperature issue. it was a pressure issue. sure heat caused the thermal expansion, but not heat any higher than the setting of the thermostat.

                        i've seen basements get flooded because the relief valve was not piped out of the basement and there was no pump. the plumber didn't take into account thermal expansion and just installed another relief valve. the basement was flooded again.

                        relief valves are set to either 125 or 150 psi. in an open system most pressure regulators have a thermal bypass in them. as long as there is no check valve, back flow preventer in the system and the city pressure before the regulator is less than the relief valve setting, there is no reason a relief valve will ever open except for a defective one.

                        if you know the facts of the situation/ installation, you will have the knowledge to distinguish right from wrong, safe from dangerous.

                        aaron had the knowledge to know right from wrong. did he have the knowledge to know safe form dangerous. did he test the heater for excess pressure or temperature. replacing a relief valve is not necessarily the answer, but typically is the solution as the majority of t&p dripping are due to bad relief valves.

                        aaron posted a good question, everyone panicked without discussing all the potentials. i brought up the other side of the issue/ devils advocate.

                        now i would like you to tell me how what i brought up would be bad. without knowing a cause and effect how does anyone learn?

                        how about the 1000's of heaters that i installed pre 1990(new construction, multiple commercial plumbing inspectors) that don't have a t&p on the heater, but do have it on the system?

                        think about it

                        even aaron commented on the comments
                        the above is my original post.

                        -------------------------------------------------------

                        below is plumbercracks edited cut and paste post.

                        Originally Posted by PLUMBER RICK
                        it was not a temperature issue. it was a pressure issue. sure heat caused the thermal expansion, but not heat any higher than the setting of the thermostat. Aaron stated the relief valve was "going off" that tells me temperature issue.
                        since he had no gauge to test pressure, i would think he could feel steam or hear boiling water. pretty self explanitory to me that it's a pressure issue and not a temperature issue.
                        funny, but this was not addressed to arron, but to ben/ gearjunkie and plumbercrack's post. still it will apply to your remarks.

                        there is no reason a relief valve will ever open except for a defective one.
                        replacing a relief valve is not necessarily the answer, but typically is the solution as the majority of t&p dripping are due to bad relief valves. That couldn't be farther from the truth.
                        you need to read the entire paragraph, not just an excerpt.
                        a relief valve is set for 125 or 150psi on a domestic water heater. if there is no check valve in the system to block the excess pressure from being trapped in the system. if the pressure regulator has a thermal bypass, and the city pressure is lower than the relief valve setting, then there is no reason a relief valve should open except for a defective one.

                        once again you left out the key words of my quote.


                        how about the 1000's of heaters that i installed pre 1990(new construction, multiple commercial plumbing inspectors) that don't have a t&p on the heater, but do have it on the system? What safety device is protecting those heaters from excessive temperatures?

                        the heaters have a thermostat and a non re-settable high limit cut off. not to mention that the open system with no check valves will allow cold water into the heater. these are domestic heaters.

                        so i guess you're trying to outsmart all the commercial plumbing inspectors that have signed off on all the different jobs that these were installed in not to mention the different cities and jurasdictions at the time of installation.


                        think about it I am and find your cavalier attitude very disturbing

                        i find your lack of not having a clue even more ammusing.
                        Rick are you feeling ok?

                        Yea I've been called a "safety baby" on more than one occasion but don't listen to me look at some of the other posts from Bob and Woussko and others.

                        Don't try and talk yourself out of this Rick. You are dead to me now. Take a seat and send in Jojo.
                        __________________


                        if you're going to quote me, don't cut and paste and take it out of contex. so i'll repost the entire piece to clarify for you.

                        i'll post in blue so that you can read my responce. look up for my responces.

                        if you quote, quote the entire part. not just bits and pieces.

                        from what i read of the others, they seem to understand where i was coming from.

                        there is redundency in a heaters safety system. pretty tuff to make one blow up. i just highlighted some of the issues.

                        out of the 50 million heaters or so installed in the usa. how many actually blow up? not just leak, but blow up. you can do the research, i don't have time to research it. and gas leaks don't count in this project.

                        sorry for the rant, but what good is a debate if we don't debate. remember i was the one who had the guts to play devils advocate and go out on a limb. glad most of you know what i was posting and where i was coming from.

                        rick.
                        Last edited by PLUMBER RICK; 08-09-2007, 01:47 AM. Reason: re read.
                        phoebe it is

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Quick Question

                          this happened while I was working in Seattle. I was not involved.

                          http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/33094_boom28.shtml
                          Brent

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Quick Question

                            Originally posted by BAPlumber View Post
                            this happened while I was working in Seattle. I was not involved.

                            http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/33094_boom28.shtml
                            very good finding one. it was an electric heater that according to the article was partitially filled with water. not sure if the person who worked on it the day earlier had shut the incoming water and didn't turn off the power?

                            it did say that the relief valve had been capped. turning the tank into a steam rocket.

                            a good example of knowing right from wrong. therefore by having the heater still heating and no water coming in, the relief valve capped, created a senario with 3 or more problems. last one is the thermostat and high limit either failed or was also tampered with?

                            had the power been turned off, it would not have exploded. or if the water turned on it probably would not have exploded. the article said water was partialy drained. therefore it was still powered on and water was off. the pressure built up and couldn't escape to the outside piping or relief valve.

                            this was in 2001 and they did say it's very rare. they also mentioned a heater that exploded in minn. in 1993,with a 40 year old heater. very very rare to have a heater that old.

                            good research baplumber

                            rick.
                            phoebe it is

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Quick Question

                              Like I said, i was working there when it happened so the research wasn't that hard. the story I heard was that there was a "plumber" there earlier, the t&p was already capped, so the water to the heater was turned off and the pressure taken off, but the power left on. A fix would be done the next day. The fix got a lot bigger.

                              The basic decision was that the plumber who was there was at fault for not protecting the public. I don't know of any legal decision.

                              I can't tell Aaron what to do because you have to take care of yourself, but if you have concerns about someones safety, speak up.
                              Brent

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Quick Question

                                Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                                the above is my original post.

                                -------------------------------------------------------

                                below is plumbercracks edited cut and paste post.

                                Originally Posted by PLUMBER RICK
                                it was not a temperature issue. it was a pressure issue. sure heat caused the thermal expansion, but not heat any higher than the setting of the thermostat. Aaron stated the relief valve was "going off" that tells me temperature issue.
                                since he had no gauge to test pressure, i would think he could feel steam or hear boiling water. pretty self explanitory to me that it's a pressure issue and not a temperature issue.
                                funny, but this was not addressed to arron, but to ben/ gearjunkie and plumbercrack's post. still it will apply to your remarks.

                                there is no reason a relief valve will ever open except for a defective one.
                                replacing a relief valve is not necessarily the answer, but typically is the solution as the majority of t&p dripping are due to bad relief valves. That couldn't be farther from the truth.
                                you need to read the entire paragraph, not just an excerpt.
                                a relief valve is set for 125 or 150psi on a domestic water heater. if there is no check valve in the system to block the excess pressure from being trapped in the system. if the pressure regulator has a thermal bypass, and the city pressure is lower than the relief valve setting, then there is no reason a relief valve should open except for a defective one.

                                once again you left out the key words of my quote.


                                how about the 1000's of heaters that i installed pre 1990(new construction, multiple commercial plumbing inspectors) that don't have a t&p on the heater, but do have it on the system? What safety device is protecting those heaters from excessive temperatures?

                                the heaters have a thermostat and a non re-settable high limit cut off. not to mention that the open system with no check valves will allow cold water into the heater. these are domestic heaters.

                                so i guess you're trying to outsmart all the commercial plumbing inspectors that have signed off on all the different jobs that these were installed in not to mention the different cities and jurasdictions at the time of installation.


                                think about it I am and find your cavalier attitude very disturbing

                                i find your lack of not having a clue even more ammusing.
                                Rick are you feeling ok?

                                Yea I've been called a "safety baby" on more than one occasion but don't listen to me look at some of the other posts from Bob and Woussko and others.

                                Don't try and talk yourself out of this Rick. You are dead to me now. Take a seat and send in Jojo.
                                __________________


                                if you're going to quote me, don't cut and paste and take it out of contex. so i'll repost the entire piece to clarify for you.

                                i'll post in blue so that you can read my responce. look up for my responces.

                                if you quote, quote the entire part. not just bits and pieces.

                                from what i read of the others, they seem to understand where i was coming from.

                                there is redundency in a heaters safety system. pretty tuff to make one blow up. i just highlighted some of the issues.

                                out of the 50 million heaters or so installed in the usa. how many actually blow up? not just leak, but blow up. you can do the research, i don't have time to research it. and gas leaks don't count in this project.

                                sorry for the rant, but what good is a debate if we don't debate. remember i was the one who had the guts to play devils advocate and go out on a limb. glad most of you know what i was posting and where i was coming from.

                                rick.

                                Very nice, I'm sorry, I had to quote this just for the heck of it Add another page to the heated thread. It is a great discussion for sure.
                                sigpic

                                Robert

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