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The "Union"

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  • #46
    Re: The "Union"

    That I can understand....somewhat. Around here, I have never know of a plumbers union, but we had many with various disciplines and the all pretty much failed and led to office closures. (very rapidly I might add).

    I am not knocking on the unions, its just that they seemed to cause more harm than good in this area of the country.

    Regards,

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: The "Union"

      Originally posted by biscuit View Post
      That I can understand....somewhat. Around here, I have never know of a plumbers union, but we had many with various disciplines and the all pretty much failed and led to office closures. (very rapidly I might add).

      I am not knocking on the unions, its just that they seemed to cause more harm than good in this area of the country.

      Regards,
      Many of us on this site started out in the Union and have since left.

      Mark
      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: The "Union"

        im a young guy who started in the union and am soo glad that i left. my granfather was in the union for a touch over 40 years untill he retired and my uncle over ten untill he moved away. i was welcomed in quickly and learned that it was not the place for me. i like to do more than what a traditional plumber is assighned to do and that is a big issue. when i first began i became freinds with a welder in the same fab shop as me, we had some down time so he was teaching me how to weld, not on work projects but scrap peices for my own knowledge to work on cars. the union steward seen me do this and was quick to point out how i was stealing work from a welder and braeking union rules and the i was written up. i got moved to the testing crew so all i did all day was water test pipe joints, i was running late by a couple of minutes and worked into my luch to complete the test. that was a hugh deal to the "brotherhood" and they gave me a fine.

        i have learned that unions here are for the lazy people who choose to coast through the trade. i have tried to hire jouneymen who cant set toilets, thrid years who cant solder, and first years who dont know what a b-tank is. i will never consider a union guy for oour outfit even though we cannot find enough men to keep afloat.

        there are many of you on this site that started and left the union and i can assume why. politics is for the birds. i know not all unions are ran the same as well not all of the guys have the same attitude. we pay more than any union and everyone drives a truck home from first year right on up.

        i see much of myself in aron, i guess i was a little more dissaplined the he is. get your ged and get to work!!. dont worry about working union for 30 years when you didnt make it through 12 of school. i agree with dog (yikes) and i say this not to be an *** but to open your eyes. i get my act together youn as you are aim 24 in 2 days, im married with 2 kids and am buying my company this year. dont worry about your long term dreams that you think people want to hear


        go to work and learn the trade!!!!
        how is it that so many answers are in the instructions

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: The "Union"

          School is important ...I just wished that i took time to learn gemran and french fluently when i was in school...Just know the basics and would be able to understand people if i was ver to get lost...in those countries...

          On the other hand if i knew it fluently it would be so much better to speak on german or french with my future clients in usa.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: The "Union"

            You already know what I think of the union. thats why I`m glad I live in a "right to work state"
            http://www.all-clear-sewer.com/

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: The "Union"

              Originally posted by biscuit View Post
              Guys,

              I am not trying to open up a can of worms here, but are "unions" really that great.

              In the south, they are few and far between so to speak, but all I have ever seen of them has been negative.

              I am just trying to get a understanding as to why they are necessary in todays market.
              GREAT question, The unions are geared for new construction commercial and industrial but not for repair work its like a step child

              They have "A" scale journeymen who can do all aspects of plumbing and "B" scale much lower then even a 4th year apprentice makes and these are the repair and small alteration guys.

              The average guy does not have to figure friction losses or fixture units or velocity or heating demands or size vent,gas or water lines

              So unless your in a very populated area where highly technical plumbing applications are then NO the unions are not necessary as there is no need for the amount of training the unions require.

              Once I passed my masters licenses the union told me they would allow me to work one year with my tools then no longer could I work so I decided to open a non union shop.

              Unions are not going to make inroads in all areas of the country as to many folks are working so cheap it wouldn't be cost effective to train someone and knowing they could never work enough for a contractor to pay back for the education they received.

              Contractors contribute to the apprentice training program and if the so called going rate in an area for a plumber is $40 per hr (in the envelope) and you have so called contractors working for this amount or slightly more then the unions can not even think of getting a foot hold in the area.

              A lot of contractors are against making a living working 30 -35 hr week they have this need to work 6 day work week a for barely a living wage and with the influx of illegals and non enforcement of existing licensing laws (like letting a GC do everything) then those parts of the country are just not worth trying to raise the bar of living standards as the up hill battle is just not worth it for a UA training program

              I had employees leave NYC move to Florida and with in 6 months ask to come back to work for me.

              Even though the cost of living is lower in the south, food, clothing , gas ,oil cost the same and a person used to making $1,500 a week (35 hrs) then going to another state and making $800 a week is a big hit.

              Also the unions like any corporation does have the good buddy system and many times a stumble bum who is connected to the unions politicians may be sent to a job rather then the more skilled union member.

              The unions have their place but I found many people that do take advantage of the education will run like hell and start their own companies as they could not receive this kind of education and get paid to learn.




              Last edited by Sylvan Tieger; 09-24-2007, 05:21 PM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: The "Union"

                Most plumbing contractors cannot provide the manpower to maintain the pace on larger scale projects(hospitals,highrises and such).

                Comment


                • #53
                  THANK YOU drtyhands I just learned

                  Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
                  Most plumbing contractors cannot provide the manpower to maintain the pace on larger scale projects(hospitals,highrises and such).


                  Your WRONG as usual I see, possibly once you may know something your talking about (one can only hope)

                  DH I know this may sound strange as you never heard about this concept BUT would you believe that in some places when there is a large project going on there is something called "joint venture" where several small contractors do a complicated high rise or an entire development?

                  Strange concept huh?

                  ALSO A 56 story office building went up in Queens NY using 3 men (2 mechanics and one apprentice). Less then one year to finish

                  How is this possible? Lets think about NO HUB cast iron and how difficult it is to do.. TYPICAL piping for 55 stories

                  How about the difficulty of soldering copper tubing day after day week after week.... By the 5th week a guy should almost be an expert at this complicated process of soldering a joint.

                  Then of course one has to specialize in setting fixtures used in an office building.

                  Drinking fountains and toilets and wall hung sinks REALLY complicated one would need at least 4 years of college to figure it out HUH?

                  Why does a high rise make you think you need a large work force? Please explain the rationale

                  it would be quite interesting learning anything from you other then name calling as you resorted to as frustration becomes you when you know your out of your league in talent so you start name calling as a self defense mechanism.

                  ITS ok I know where your from and the SUN does take its toll

                  Class is in Now you can learn DH real plummmmin stuff

                  There is something called prefab where one person sits in a shop makes up the branch work and cast iron attached to a angle iron frame and these frames are dropped off to the job site then lifted by crane or construction elevators then they are set in place thus only TWO people are needed at the job site.

                  Of course the union frowns upon this type of work UNLESS a union guy is in the shop doing the prefab frames and the two people on the job site are also union

                  Now pay attention Mr DH I may test you later on how complicated HIGH RISE stuff is..

                  The beauty of this set up is there are the following connections top and bottom of the cast iron

                  Top and bottom of the copper riser connected to the frame thus we are talking two copper couplings and two no hub couplings and possibly the piping in between the floor height

                  Remember the branch work and "roughing" was already completed at the shop or JOB site shanty

                  BET YOU never thought of it huh?

                  Much to complicated for non high rise thinkers

                  Fire suppression systems I know how complicated you think it is NEED AT LEAST 1,000 people HUH? At least Two men to install a sprinkler head as one has to hold the ladder and one has to install the heads and one goes for coffee

                  BUT in reality a contractor with any brains would simply get the plans and do one of two things

                  1- Call a piping supply company and have them cut the pipes with threads or Victraulic ends and number them as per drawings and the installer is now a monkey putting pipes together by the numbers.

                  1 =Riser 2 = Branch 3= Attached to the #2 branch 4=Attached to #3 branch 4" then 3" then 21/2 then 2" really hard to figure out and needs a big work force

                  That took so much power to reason out.

                  IT cost more BUT it does cut the labor cost considerably thus one saves in the long run

                  Bet DRTY HANDS didn't think of this either (very complicated I'm sure)

                  Now the way I do it just like 20,000 professionals

                  2- Hire an engineer familiar with fire suppression systems and ( NEW WORD FOR YOU GUY) hydraulically design the system

                  What this means instead of the usual 6" then 4" then 3" then 21/2" and 2" and then 11/2" and 11/4" and finally 1" pipe size for the sprinkler heads.

                  One has the engineer calculate the pressure and "K" factors into consideration and thus one can actually run a 2" or less pipe size for the entire loop on a floor.

                  My ,my handling 2" pipe does require so much man power especially if the piping is copper no wonder you said
                  Most plumbing contractors cannot provide the manpower"

                  as 2" copper is really heavy and complicated to install with clevis hangers and standing on an A frame ladder or rolling scaffold

                  There is something in piping called design and friction loss and fixture units and the probability of all the fixtures in a structure being used at once.

                  BUT thankfully you do not have to get involved in the technical aspects as there are General contractors in your area to do the work that as you said

                  "
                  Most plumbing contractors cannot provide the manpower"

                  THUS the GC has to cover the short comings you stated about MOST plumbers in your area ..

                  I just am quoting you so this way I learn why MOST of the plumbers in your are are incapable of doing certain jobs that are supposed to be plumbing or steam fitting or fire suppression piping contractors work.

                  Thank you DH for the new found education you gave the list about how to say that job is to big for most guys who do not know their jobs and get intimated by the height of the building

                  FYI Height of a building has NO bearing on the fixture units inside the structure.

                  What a real plumber would do instead of saying it is to hard for most plumbers to do, is sit down look at the plans re do the calculations then say on there is 4 bathrooms per floor and two drinking fountains.

                  Then add up the total fixture units (one cubic foot = one FU which is 7.48 gallons) OR on roof drainage and other storm drains by SQ foot and pitch but that is to confusing for you so lets stick with the basics

                  Once you count all the fixtures going into each soil stack you can now size the piping accordingly.

                  Lets figure a stack picking up the drinking (56) fountains as we would like to keep this line as an indirect waste we check the local code and find out they consider a drinking fountain 1/2 FU and then we do something amazing we check the piping chart under DRAINAGE and find out a 3" line is more then large enough to handle 56 drinking fountains.

                  I guess 3" pipe is well beyond a small shop to install for 56 stories NEED a lot of folks to hold a 3" line and place a riser clam on it and then add a coupling at least 6 or possible 7 people.

                  BUT you do know as you pick up more fixtures the piping increases thus you can start off with an 11/2" pipe for several floors then a 2" and there is no 21/2 CI so may as well go directly to 3" unless you like using galvanized or copper

                  GET the point DH that you should not say

                  Most plumbing contractors cannot provide the manpower"

                  BECAUSE of your own short comings in education and planning out a building.

                  LEARN, please as you make plumbers look bad spewing stuff that you said cant be done YET it is done everyday.


                  Last edited by Sylvan Tieger; 09-24-2007, 08:06 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    THANK YOU drtyhands I just learned

                    Sorry dude but since you started with name calling and then said HOW HARD a high rise is I thought you could use a little education that normally a 1st year apprentice would have learned.

                    Play nice and either try to learn like most of want to do OR just ignore me and go in peace bro
                    Last edited by Sylvan Tieger; 09-24-2007, 07:56 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: THANK YOU drtyhands I just learned

                      Originally posted by Sylvan Tieger View Post
                      Sorry dude but since you started with name calling and then said HOW HARD a high rise is I thought you could use a little education that normally a 1st year apprentice would have learned.

                      Play nice and either try to learn like most of want to do OR just ignore me and go in peace bro
                      Sylvan,make no mistake,I understand the fabrication process.I have excercised it as much as possible to expidite projects.What makes you assume I am inexperienced in what you speak of.

                      Yeah a year to do 55 floors.I have been on hospitals,resort hotels,Biotech research facilities and HIGHRISES.Their has never been less than 30 plumbers on any one of these union projects as the job had a timeline that could not be sacrificed.

                      You have a way of posting that makes me uncomfortable,this happens.I'm cool,thanks for the secondary post.

                      I'm also glad you understand some of the installation process.

                      3 guys less than a year? Sorry nice try.

                      Design,fab waste,copper,test,insulate,protect,set finish.

                      You have lost one of your men to moving material full time.That leaves you with two.I want to meet both of those men.I want to get even more productive.But I fear this is not going to happen.

                      I do not wish to go in peace and leave behind what I care about.When my peers pop my choke collar I'll stand down.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: The "Union"

                        Sylvan, wow, that was a very informative article. Very well written with no sarcastic undertones. After that education lesson, could you please school me on snaking a 4" drain line with a 5/8" sectional cable or even better yet, please tell me about your wonderful 1 1/8" sectional cable. I didn't read that part of your article. Please elaborate. I'm sitting on the edge of my seat.

                        Also, I rebuilt a Kohler faucet for just the second time (I run into Delta out here). How can I be afforded the opportunity to write and get paid for writing an article about rebuilding faucets. After rebuilding 2 Kohler faucets, I must be an expert by now and am qualified to write articles. Thanks Sylvan, you're the best.
                        Last edited by gear junkie; 09-24-2007, 10:50 PM.
                        Buy cheap, buy twice.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: The "Union"

                          I like pie.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: THANK YOU drtyhands I just learned

                            Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
                            Sylvan,make no mistake,I understand the fabrication process.I have excercised it as much as possible to expidite projects.What makes you assume I am inexperienced in what you speak of.

                            Yeah a year to do 55 floors.I have been on hospitals,resort hotels,Biotech research facilities and HIGHRISES.Their has never been less than 30 plumbers on any one of these union projects as the job had a timeline that could not be sacrificed.

                            You have a way of posting that makes me uncomfortable,this happens.I'm cool,thanks for the secondary post.

                            I'm also glad you understand some of the installation process.

                            3 guys less than a year? Sorry nice try.

                            Design,fab waste,copper,test,insulate,protect,set finish.

                            You have lost one of your men to moving material full time.That leaves you with two.I want to meet both of those men.I want to get even more productive.But I fear this is not going to happen.

                            I do not wish to go in peace and leave behind what I care about.When my peers pop my choke collar I'll stand down.
                            adam, i would love to see the 3 guys that ruffed in and set finish on this 55 story job too. i would love to see a 55 story building go up in 1 year from ground to final.

                            slyvan has a wild imagination. please post some photos of these 3 bionic men and the building they built. i would love to see the permit card and dates.

                            i too have been on very large projects both residential high rise and commercial high rise. i don't care how much comes pre-fabbed.

                            rome wasn't built in a day. and 55 stories wasn't plumbed by 3 plumbers in a year

                            dog, time for you to chime in

                            rick.
                            phoebe it is

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: The "Union"

                              when I was a 1st year plumbing apprentice I was part of a crew that rough plumbed in six 2-story duplexes on a Saturday. It was part of a tract development.

                              The plumbing contractor had fallen behind schedule and the GC (a major developer) threatened to put a performance lien on the plumbing contractor.

                              My journeyman was called into the shop on Friday afternoon and promised triple time if he could get enough buildings roughed in by Monday so that the GC would not levy the performance lien. My journeyman said he could do it if he could pick the crew. The plumbing contractor agreed.

                              That Saturday my journeyman, the 2nd year apprentice, me (1st yr app) and a second journeyman plumber started work. My journeyman layed out the marks for where the piping needed to run. The 2nd yr app and me broke out the Milwaukee Hole Hawgs and started drilling.

                              While the 2nd yr app was cutting and threading the gas pipe, I cut and glued the ABS together. We then finished the waste lines and vents and screwed the gas pipe together.

                              The 2nd journeyman roughed in all the copper waterlines, the 2nd yr app and I ran all the ABS waste and black galvy gas pipe.

                              My journeyman ran the no-hub CI in the garages.

                              Monday morning the plumbing inspector started the inspections. If I remember correctly it took him all day to finish the inspections. I do remember my journeyman telling me that what we accomplished that Saturday surprised and impressed the s**t out of the GC. His comment to my journeyman was "why the h*ll didn't you do that before?"

                              I have no idea how that job compares to what Sylvan Tiger is talking about.

                              ps: Aaron91 had mentioned something about how he gets the job done correctly and is motivated to work hard. That reminded me of this incident. Us two apprentices, not too much older than Aaron, caused our journeyman to bust out laughing when he saw the 2 of us running with 6 full length 1/2" gas pipe on our shoulders. We were young and full of energy...

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: The "Union"

                                Here we go again. Why cant everyone get along. Some people just breed constroversy. Everyone play as nice as you can. Let me know if punches start flying.

                                Comment

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