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  • #61
    Re: The "Union"

    Originally posted by Sylvan Tieger View Post
    The average guy does not have to figure friction losses or fixture units or velocity or heating demands or size vent,gas or water lines

    All right, serious question here. Why would the plumber need to figure all that out? Isn't that the engineer's job? This is not my typical response to Sylvan, I really want to know.
    Buy cheap, buy twice.

    Comment


    • #62
      Thank you Josh

      Originally posted by Josh View Post
      Here we go again. Why cant everyone get along. Some people just breed constroversy. Everyone play as nice as you can. Let me know if punches start flying.

      Josh, these folks did not see the Citi Bank Job in Queens and they also assume the "plumbers" insulate the piping (we do not) and the holes are already pre cast with the plastic /steel sleeve that is installed prior to the pouring and commercial work normally has less fixtures to install then a high rise condo or co -op

      The different areas of the country by the posting are an education as I can now see why certain employees receive over $60 per hr in the envelope and some places the employer charges around this amount as they know the limitations and the lack of skill level in depressed areas of their help.

      The high rise did not have gas risers and the plumbing was performed by plumbers and the steam fitters did the heating and fire suppression work.

      This is no way meant to be a put down but there are about 1,200 LMPs in the NYC area servicing over 8 million people.

      I cannot imagine how developments using the out of state mind set could ever be accomplished.

      With the right tools and the proper training and the higher pay scales afford to the workers I am sure there is a big difference in quality and productivity.

      Considering when employees receive double time after 35 hours and triple time for Sunday you would expect to get a lot of production.

      It was not at all meant to belittle anyone it just shows that certain areas require a lot more then the good ole boy attitude that, if it isn't completed today we can come back in a week or so.

      What I did as an incentive for my employees on a job that had a $1,000 a day penalty clause was ask the developer what incentive do we have for completing the plumbing early

      His mouth dropped open as I said it should work both ways if I have to pay $1,000 a day then why cant you pay me the same amount if we do it faster?

      My guys worked like crazy putting in 10 -12 hr days and the bonus we received I gave directly to them as I had my profit already figured in

      There are many incentives an employer can offer that gets the most out of the folks working with them.

      In NYC it is common practice to buy the shop superintendent a car (in the 1970s it was a CADDY )

      Face it tools cost a lot of money and to furnish the employees with all tools including all hand tools the employer has to figure this in as part of the over head in pricing.

      NYC Unions do not allow journeymen to own tools of their own as they are NOT licensed masters thus they must be given tools by the employer EVERYTHING but a ruler and pencil.

      By me furnishing my employees with say Ridgid wrenches and hammers and sawzalls and telling them under no circumstances are they allowed to use their own tools or loan mine to anyone not employed by me there is no possibility of a three party case or a comp case because I gave them some imported piece of crap hammer that shoots shapnel when the ball pein hits a chisel.

      When your staff has the right tools and the proper training AND THE INCENTIVE to make a decent living then anything is possible without having a bunch of slouches saying its close enough for government work.

      The unions cannot become to big as in case of slow times they do not want to start losing skilled men to non union shops and they can not afford to put to many men on one job as this could create a shortage to the other contributing contractors.

      The U/A training cost several thousands per helper per year thus they do not train to many and take a chance of them leaving with an amazing education, which happens if they cannot keep them employed.

      Thus you pay top dollar and get the best mechanics and if you find they don't give a fairs days work for a fairs day pay you lay them off.

      My helper who never did any plumbing I started him off at $25 per hr and told him as he learns and produces the pay will go up accordingly.

      Everyone doesn't want a pat on the back, put in the pay envelope that shows appreciation and the more they produce the higher the compensation

      The three men and apprentice who did the Citi bank building were hand picked and appreciated the fact they did not lose one day of work STEADY work means a lot and indoor job in the dead of winter is also a great incentive not to slow down so your replaced by someone hungry for work.

      This country is sure divided when it comes to paying skilled tradesmen and so is the training or lacking it would appear.

      These is no reason to fight as it should be discussed openly hoping to raise the standard of living for all concerned.

      By some of the question posted regarding which size snake to use for a 4" diameter pipe shows how the various states should seriously consider licensing drain cleaners as many companies like Ridgid even suggest "not for roots Or do not use going through a 3" trap"

      If the person buying the equipment doesn't know its limitations or capabilities possibly they should look for another trade or the very least work for someone so they too can learn.

      Cutting head questions make sense as after trail and error many folks do find a one they feel comfortable for removing grease and if the bothered to read the book it says use a starting head to get a flow.

      Many drain cleaning guy only learn by OJT and it is a shame as there are many publications dealing with training and how to get the maximum out of any given machine.

      Even the Auto - spin some of the folks knocked shows they never bothered to learn the capabilities and limitations of this machine

      Yes it is very,very light duty
      But it is not meant for roots of ant hard stoppage for that there is the hand held machines that have more torque

      The Auto Spin excels at standing wastes (sometimes called barrel waste) that is lead wiped to a lead trap and you really do not want to puncture a lead pipe under a marble floor that was installed in the late 1800's

      It is neat easy to clean on retrieval the reverse is a great safety feature as it must be held in to operate and it does the job it is designed to do.

      There is no such thing as one snake that does it all and the Auto spin getting a bar rap shows the folks who bought it had no clue to what it is actually meant for.

      Knowing it is light duty and knowing it will fail after repeated use I bought two of them as they are cheap enough and cost less then doing the stoppage.

      If one looks at it this way and says ok I did three stoppages and it died and the machine more then paid for itself on the first job then why complain?

      Would they rather have a snake that is designed for lead piping 11/2 and cost 10 times more? I also have the K- 375 but I would not dare use it on lead or roots and the K 38 is great on kitchen waste lines and some 3" leader lines depending which wire I use

      Knowing the Auto spin is cheap to buy what did they expect?

      A poor mechanic will always fault the tool as they just have no clue to the proper use and thus they should call Ridgid in Ohio and ASK before they get into trouble and scream this tool is NG

      with the auto spin I like the idea of one hand operation as the other hand can hold a rag as you snake is withdrawn and hot water is flowing cleaning the very flexible cable and then the drum allows me to spray WD 40 in it to keep the fine wire from rusting.

      Basin stoppages I just remove the pop up assembly and can snake through the double offset then through the 11/2" P trap then through the Galvanized Tee and past other 90 degree fittings

      NOT to many snakes are capable of passing double 45 deg then 180 and then another 90 rust packed lines and get to the stoppage.


      Any tool in the wrong hands is going to be blamed as no good.

      2 of my 4 jetters are Ridgid which I use the most I had the 2200 working 5 9 hour days and the 1350 does an amazing job without blowing out the circuit breakers in older buildings.

      I find it is not so much the tool at fault but the persons lack of training and their lack of understanding of what it is designed for.

      Besides Ridgid does back their equipment its not like that sell it and say sorry cant be bothered.

      The service department is second to non.

      I said my peace I just could not stand all the bickering about how this tool is no good etc.

      Its not the size of the too it is how the person uses it and a man has to know his limitations .
















      Comment


      • #63
        Re: The "Union"

        Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
        All right, serious question here. Why would the plumber need to figure all that out? Isn't that the engineer's job? This is not my typical response to Sylvan, I really want to know.

        I have never had to figure out friction loss, unless it's verticle loss from either potable water or pumps, and thats not really considered friction loss, like when water goes through 9- 3/4 90's, how much pressure loss will result, etc.

        I do need to size water, gas and venting/drain when I do remodels, to make sure I am properly installing my systems.
        sigpic

        Robert

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: The "Union"

          Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
          Sylvan, wow, that was a very informative article. Very well written with no sarcastic undertones. After that education lesson, could you please school me on snaking a 4" drain line with a 5/8" sectional cable or even better yet, please tell me about your wonderful 1 1/8" sectional cable. I didn't read that part of your article. Please elaborate. I'm sitting on the edge of my seat.

          Also, I rebuilt a Kohler faucet for just the second time (I run into Delta out here). How can I be afforded the opportunity to write and get paid for writing an article about rebuilding faucets. After rebuilding 2 Kohler faucets, I must be an expert by now and am qualified to write articles. Thanks Sylvan, you're the best.
          Gear about what size cable to use why not pick up the book that came with your machine and have someone read it to you and explain it

          You just might think about signing up for "cleaner publication" as it may shed some light on drain cleaning which shows by your question that you must be a government employer and the government never bothered to enlighten you with the books readily available like "how to"

          There is a world of knowledge out there you really should try looking it up before asking me as I can tell you but you wont learn unless you know how and why.

          You can also contact Ridgid in Ohio the techs there are very ,very patient and I am sure they can "gear" things down to your capabilities.

          Have you ever seriously thought of going to BOCES or some night trade school?

          By the way Delta is an amazing company as they have lots of pictures "geared" for people like you who rather ask then read up on the various products and DELTA has Project Delta that gives you a home study course and booklets to look at the pictures with questions and answerers JUST LIKE THE SEA BEE Training lots of pictures to look over

          Delta if you look at the picture has a spring under a little rubber cap that I am sure someone can show you which way the spring sits.

          Then possibly in a few months you can learn to adjust the temperature control on the monitor series and this way you can make services calls, you know, making seasonal changes to the setting as the ambient temperature changes and the water heater is adjusted then you can go around and adjust all the shower body's which I am sure someone with your capabilities may find challenging at first but after repetition like SEA BEE training you can hack it.

          The GI Bill may even pay for you to learn something about the field your dabbling in as asking me on this board instead of asking the manufacturer shows your not really capable of going out in the field YET, but there is hope as once you read about inner core cables and setting the torque so you don't hurt yourself you can be come a contender of drain cleaners and washer replacement specialist FIRST CLASS E -6 at least

          Shame you didn't pick on the Air force to sign up with as they really have an amazing program for "plumbers" and not the OJT stuff the Navy has, unless of course your a ship fitter then that training is great.

          Gear, I wish you the best and I am sure if you contact the various manufactures of faucets and snake machines and read TRADE publications as there really is no short cut in learning a trade.

          You "CAD DO"

          if you ask a petty officer possibly an E -4 or E -5 to help you as they are there to train subordinates

          AYE AYE lad and don't feel bad guy there is always a government job out there with your qualifications

          Carry on, DISMISSED

          USN VET 1965 -1968 (Gear you kind of embarrassed us USN folks asking about which wire rope to use there lad )

          Next time ask me in private so folks think we are all walking around dabbling in this that we are not trained in.

          This is a public list and the SEA BEES look bad enough to the USMC don't make it worse as some of my best friends are real SEA Bee's and they can do..

          If you can disassemble an M-1 then a Delta should be a piece of cake, think of it as a delicate 45 cal with little springs

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: The "Union"

            Originally posted by westcoastplumber View Post
            I have never had to figure out friction loss, unless it's verticle loss from either potable water or pumps, and thats not really considered friction loss, like when water goes through 9- 3/4 90's, how much pressure loss will result, etc.

            I do need to size water, gas and venting/drain when I do remodels, to make sure I am properly installing my systems.
            We have water tanks on the roofs of many buildings all over NYC and the reason our water supply is cheaper then most of the country it comes to the city via gravity.

            Then we pump it up to the roof tank that has a ball cock in it and then we have several ways for distribution. Down feed or down then up or a combination of both

            Then each tank has a fire reserve for either sprinkler or stand pipe and one has to figure the height of the tank off the upper most floor .434 for the static pressure and we have to get the water up to the tank so we figure 2.31 times the pressure then take in the friction losses of the piping galvanized or copper and a glove valve etc

            I wish I had time to explain more, but tomorrow I must be in Manhattan and the UN is in thus I have to get there before they shut down the city so good night.

            By the way what about hydronic heating, velocity plays a big part in copper tubing erosion (2-3 FPS ) is about the max we can go


            Comment


            • #66
              Re: The "Union"

              sylvan your posts are about 2 sentences of real content, JAM PACKED into a short novel. We know you can spell, and type and we dont care. Since you're so knowledgable, why dont you look up the word summary. Read it, know it, study it, then apply it. Cause you're boring the sh!t out of everyone with these 2 page posts.

              PS I dont think I even have to comment on the absurdity of what you said about the 55 story highrise. Whats next, are you going to rough-in a hospital on your lunch break?
              West Trail Mechanical Ltd
              Service. Commitment. Expertise.

              www.westtrailmechanical.ca

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: The "Union"

                Originally posted by Sylvan Tieger View Post
                Gear about what size cable to use why not pick up the book that came with your machine and have someone read it to you and explain it
                You write articles but have only used a sectional 2 times in 39 years and you use the wrong size cable. Why do you pose as an expert?
                You just might think about signing up for "cleaner publication" as it may shed some light on drain cleaning which shows by your question that you must be a government employer and the government never bothered to enlighten you with the books readily available like "how to"

                There is a world of knowledge out there you really should try looking it up before asking me as I can tell you but you wont learn unless you know how and why.

                You can also contact Ridgid in Ohio the techs there are very ,very patient and I am sure they can "gear" things down to your capabilities. Don't patronize me. I am not stupid. Don't try to imply that. When I made E-6, I scored an 80 on the test which is the highest you can achieve. Do not ever think of talking down to me.

                Have you ever seriously thought of going to BOCES or some night trade school? I already do except it's for HVAC, a trade harder than your mind could comprehend.

                By the way Delta is an amazing company as they have lots of pictures "geared" for people like you who rather ask then read up on the various products and DELTA has Project Delta that gives you a home study course and booklets to look at the pictures with questions and answerers JUST LIKE THE SEA BEE Training lots of pictures to look over

                Delta if you look at the picture has a spring under a little rubber cap that I am sure someone can show you which way the spring sits.

                Then possibly in a few months you can learn to adjust the temperature control on the monitor series and this way you can make services calls, you know, making seasonal changes to the setting as the ambient temperature changes and the water heater is adjusted then you can go around and adjust all the shower body's which I am sure someone with your capabilities may find challenging at first but after repetition like SEA BEE training you can hack it.

                The GI Bill may even pay for you to learn something about the field your dabbling in as asking me on this board instead of asking the manufacturer shows your not really capable of going out in the field YET, but there is hope as once you read about inner core cables and setting the torque so you don't hurt yourself you can be come a contender of drain cleaners and washer replacement specialist FIRST CLASS E -6 at least

                Shame you didn't pick on the Air force to sign up with as they really have an amazing program for "plumbers" and not the OJT stuff the Navy has, unless of course your a ship fitter then that training is great.

                Gear, I wish you the best and I am sure if you contact the various manufactures of faucets and snake machines and read TRADE publications as there really is no short cut in learning a trade.

                You "CAD DO"

                if you ask a petty officer possibly an E -4 or E -5 to help you as they are there to train subordinates

                AYE AYE lad and don't feel bad guy there is always a government job out there with your qualifications

                Carry on, DISMISSED YOU DO NOT DISMISS ME YOU PIECE OF ****. YOU TALK DOWN ON US SEABEES LIKE WE'RE UNQUALIFIED IN THE NAVY. ASK A MARINE OR SF WHAT THEY THINK OF SEABEES. WHO DO YOU THINK BUILDS THEY'RE LIVING QUARTERS? ATTACK MY CHARACTER, FINE, NEVER, EVER TALK DOWN TO A OR ABOUT SEABEES. YOU HAVEN'T EARNED THAT RIGHT.

                USN VET 1965 -1968 (Gear you kind of embarrassed us USN folks asking about which wire rope to use there lad ) Why only 3 years? Couldn't hack it? No mention of Honorable Discharge? AND you're the one that use the wrong cable for the size pipe you're clearing and writing articles about it.

                Next time ask me in private so folks think we are all walking around dabbling in this that we are not trained in.

                This is a public list and the SEA BEES look bad enough to the USMC don't make it worse as some of my best friends are real SEA Bee's and they can do..

                If you can disassemble an M-1 then a Delta should be a piece of cake, think of it as a delicate 45 cal with little springs
                M-16 is the weapon of the military now. I can assemble and dissamble the M-9, M-16, M-60, and M2HB blindfolded and all within required time limits.
                You're obviously so stupid that you can't see sarcasm when it's hitting you in the forehead.
                Buy cheap, buy twice.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: The "Union"

                  [quote=Sylvan Tieger;96045]Gear about what size cable to use why not pick up the book that came with your machine and have someone read it to you and explain it
                  slyvan, i will ask some questions of you since you have avoided the prior ones.
                  please explain that 1 1/8'' sectional machine and cable you have used and wrote about. still waiting





                  Originally posted by Sylvan Tieger View Post
                  ALSO A 56 story office building went up in Queens NY using 3 men (2 mechanics and one apprentice). Less then one year to finish
                  so is it 2 journeymen and an apprentice or

                  Originally posted by Sylvan Tieger View Post
                  The three men and apprentice who did the Citi bank building were hand picked and appreciated the fact they did not lose one day of work STEADY work means a lot and indoor job in the dead of winter is also a great incentive not to slow down so your replaced by someone hungry for work.

                  is it 3 journeymen and an apprentice? your short term memory is failing and you're starting to let me down.

                  By some of the question posted regarding which size snake to use for a 4" diameter pipe shows how the various states should seriously consider licensing drain cleaners as many companies like Ridgid even suggest "not for roots Or do not use going through a 3" trap"

                  still like to know about your 1 1/8'' cable and sectional machine you have and write so much about.

                  If the person buying the equipment doesn't know its limitations or capabilities possibly they should look for another trade or the very least work for someone so they too can learn.

                  slyvan time for you to work for ben or me so we can teach you about drain cleaning.

                  p.s no toy machines here. keep your auto spin at home for your own use.

                  Cutting head questions make sense as after trail and error many folks do find a one they feel comfortable for removing grease and if the bothered to read the book it says use a starting head to get a flow.

                  Many drain cleaning guy only learn by OJT and it is a shame as there are many publications dealing with training and how to get the maximum out of any given machine.
                  slyvan if your're going to single someone out, you better know what your talking about.

                  there are some points you make that have merit.
                  but the majority of your post are from a creative imagination, short memory, and totally useless to us.

                  please don't call yourself an expert when everybody here can call your bluff.

                  if you want to pick on someone, give me a shot.

                  the majority of these guys are here asking questions and looking for advise. i suggest you start looking for advise instead of trying to give it. your all over the place.

                  if all you're here for is to stir things up, you're doing a good job.

                  if you're here to contribute and help others, then show it. you're doing a lousy job thus far.

                  rick.
                  phoebe it is

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: The "Union"

                    Come on guys give Sylvan a break. The 56 story building was likely only an office building so there were only 112 bathrooms, 56 drinking fountains, 56 janitor closets, 168 floor drains, a couple of dozen roof drains and all of the stuff to make the fore mentioned stuff work. Not bad for two guys and a helper to complete in less than a year working 30-35 hours per week.

                    Mark

                    TOL: I wonder what size cast iron they had to hang at the bottom and how long that took?
                    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: The "Union"

                      oops..I almost forgot about all of the drains, dewatering and sumps in the underground.

                      Mark

                      BTW: Rick I checked and the Citi Bank building is 59 stories so I believe we are talking two different projects hense the extra man.
                      Last edited by ToUtahNow; 09-26-2007, 03:20 PM.
                      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: The "Union"

                        Originally posted by bigPipe09 View Post
                        sylvan your posts are about 2 sentences of real content, JAM PACKED into a short novel. We know you can spell, and type and we dont care. Since you're so knowledgable, why dont you look up the word summary. Read it, know it, study it, then apply it. Cause you're boring the sh!t out of everyone with these 2 page posts.

                        PS I dont think I even have to comment on the absurdity of what you said about the 55 story highrise. Whats next, are you going to rough-in a hospital on your lunch break?

                        EH , EH only in Canada as the government heath care is REALLY so good thus no need for a real hospital as the smarter Canoks come across the boarder to seek real medical help thus a Canadian hospital can be a circus tent as the Canadian government knows what it has to deal with so hospitals really are not that high tech in a third world country

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: The "Union"

                          M-16 is the weapon of the military now. I can assemble and dissamble the M-9, M-16, M-60, and M2HB blindfolded and all within required time limits.

                          So possibly you might be able to fix a Delta,,

                          About the 3 year KIDDIE Cruiser join by age 17 out before your 21 birthday and here I only made E 5 and your only made E -6 which I was offered if I extended

                          BUT I do not like to get hand outs working for the government as some folks have this need to be told what clothes to wear when and where to eat.

                          IF you removed the blind fold, that may be the problem as to WHY you cant do plumbing or drain cleaning and have to ask me, I could never talk down to you after all I did finish first grade and know to ask the manufacturer Have you considered going to an NRA class and then ytou can clean all my fire arms as not everyone can do plumbing or drain cleaning and your such an expert at fire arms you could clean them for licensed gun smiths.

                          Can DO ??? The M- 1 still rocks


                          You say you wear a blind fold and can do guns EVER think of being a bank robber? you seem to have the qualifications and with the SEA BEE training you can bury the loot with your government issued shovel.

                          YOUR doing good lad keep up the CAN DO attitude and keep asking question as possibly you might learn huh

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: The "Union"

                            Originally posted by Sylvan Tieger View Post
                            you seem to have the qualifications and with the SEA BEE training you can bury the loot with your government issued shovel.


                            I actually have my old and a couple of the new Government Issued shovels and yes I do actually use one every now and then. They do come in handy

                            However Sylvan has a come up with a good use for it too.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: The "Union"

                              looks like it's time to lock the thread....

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: The "Union"

                                I find Sylvans' posts way less annoying when hes on my ignore list

                                Comment

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