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I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

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  • #16
    Terms can be confusing

    Funny how one seeing the discharge from the T&P as an air gap (water distribution system)

    Or called an Air Break (drainage system)

    Guess each area of the country has their own terminology

    I wonder how many folks outside of NYC heard branch work called "Crodence"

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Terms can be confusing

      " what will the heater weigh when full? "

      50 gal x 8.33 lb/Gal = 416.5 Lbs + weight of water heater

      So roughly 525 Lbs sitting on the three 1-1/2" PVC couplings, not good.
      It's gonna be tough to rectify this but as Robert said its not necessary and probably unsafe to elevate the WH in this manner.

      Remove the copper tee in your blow off line from the T&P valve, it's an accident waiting to happen.

      Best advice you could give the HO is to drain the tank once a year to flush out the crud that will accumulate and eventually kill the WH before its time.


      I gotta ask though how you can be a first year apprentice and have someone working under you. I'm kinda surprised your out on your own and I can't get used to a 16 YO being able to drive a commercial vehicle but that's because here in NJ that is not allowed, you must be 18 to operate machinery or a commercial vehicle. But then again, you have to be 18 to start an apprenticeship too.
      Last edited by Bob D.; 09-22-2007, 07:58 PM.
      "It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?" Bob D. 2006

      https://www.youtube.com/user/PowerToolInstitute

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      • #18
        Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

        Originally posted by Sylvan Tieger View Post
        Aaron your joints look perfect but there is a slight problem with the piping arrangement.

        The discharge piping shall have as few bends as possible (less friction loss) and pitch the piping away from the discharge point.

        The end of the discharge pipe should be cut normally in a 45 degree angle so no one can add a fitting to the T&P relief piping

        You did not leave a means for replacing the T&P , the copper has to be cut and either a coupling or a union has to be installed by the person replacing the safety valve.

        The discharge from a relieve or safety valve shall not connect to any drain or vent but through a "air break"

        The reasoning is in case the condensate drain becomes blocked the T&P will not discharge properly if at all.

        The outlet of a pressure relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination thereof, shall not be directly
        connected to the drainage system. The discharge from the relief valve shall be piped full size separately
        to the floor, to the outside of the building or to an indirect waste receptor located inside the building. In
        areas subject to freezing, the relief valve shall discharge through an air gap into an indirect waste
        receptor located within a heated space, or by other approved means. The discharge shall be installed in a
        manner that does not cause personal injury or property damage and that is readily observable by the
        building occupants. The discharge from a relief valve shall not be trapped. The diameter of the discharge
        piping shall not be less than the diameter of the relief valve outlet. The discharge pipe shall be installed
        so as to drain by gravity flow and shall terminate atmospherically not more than 6 inches (152 mm) above
        the floor. The outlet end of the discharge pipe shall not have a valve installed.


        If you check the NBBI or ASME IV (Article 7Fig.HLW-703.1 & HLW-703.2 ) you will see the piping arrangements suggested

        Section 504.7 and 504.7.1 of the standard plumbing code basically takes the same wording from the ASME/NBBI about where the discharge piping from a T&P shall be located



        If you ever have a question please feel free to either contract me or the NBBI /ASME / NFPA are more then willing to share their knowledge with any one desiring the right answers.

        You can also join my PIDL list if you want to talk to new comers and really old timers from all over the globe
        What's the code sections on that.
        the dog

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        • #19
          Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

          PS

          What do I have to do to join your private forum. Or, are you scared of outside opinions.
          the dog

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

            Originally posted by plumbdog10 View Post
            What's the code sections on that.
            I believe he may be referring to PHCC's "National Standard Plumbing Code".

            Mark
            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

              Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
              Here it's 18". Aaron you're doing good, you know you're opening yourself up for critism when you post these pics but you do it for self improvement. That's a very hard thing to do. Learn from your mistakes and you'll be doing good.
              Other point I opted not to mention so not to confuse him was vacuum breaker, required here, but apparently obsolete in many states.

              I assume if they were required in MD Aaron would have put one on.

              Humorous note, so much for my efforts to not confuse him, starting to wonder how good an idea it is for him to seek insights outside his code jurisdiction.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

                Originally posted by westcoastplumber View Post
                The required air gap on a t&p line is 2 times the pipe size per code. (UPC) This would be in the "Indirect Waste" section of the code book.
                Thats the very definition of an air gap in my code, tub spouts 1" for example.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

                  Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                  I believe he may be referring to PHCC's "National Standard Plumbing Code".

                  Mark
                  Well my comments are a bit off the tract. I attempted to join his forums, under a false name and email I set up at Yahoo. In two weeks I received 98 emails of the most vile raciest sort. If Sylvan wants to produce that point of view, fine. But do it up front. Present your ideas and allow the public to comment.

                  I'm sorry Arron, to turn your thread into this, but it came to a head here. I think your work looked clean, very clean. I see you had shut-off valves, but if I was foreman I'd like to see them lower, at arm's length. As for the rest of my comments, as I said, check with your foreman for local code requirements, I wouldn't rely on Sylvan. But overall, it was a well executed job you should feel pride in your work. Any comments I provide are meant to make you a better plumber.
                  the dog

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

                    Originally posted by plumbdog10 View Post
                    Well my comments are a bit off the tract. I attempted to join his forums, under a false name and email I set up at Yahoo. In two weeks I received 98 emails of the most vile raciest sort. If Sylvan wants to produce that point of view, fine. But do it up front. Present your ideas and allow the public to comment.
                    LOL-That's too funny I had the same problem with his list. What's worst is while I was out of town my email went over-quota so I could not receive any of my important emails. As for the list content I also found the same thing with very little plumbing being discussed.

                    Mark
                    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

                      Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                      LOL-That's too funny I had the same problem with his list. What's worst is while I was out of town my email went over-quota so I could not receive any of my important emails. As for the list content I also found the same thing with very little plumbing being discussed.

                      Mark
                      I was forewarned so set up a Yahoo account just for Sylvan's special brand of humanity. Thank God I did. Thanks Mrs. Seatdown.
                      the dog

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

                        I would just be echoing some of the comments made earlier...
                        It looks to be a neat job but we cannot support the tank that way, nor can we run the T&P interconnected with any other system...
                        I think we also have to run the first 2' in copper - but am not 100% sure ont eh distance...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

                          Bob- It is on 4 1-1/2" PVC Couplings, so it is a bit more stable then it would be with only 3 Couplings.

                          I plan to remove the 3/4" Tee on Monday with pictures to follow.

                          If the home had a homeowner I would pass along the helpful hint but it's not sold yet.

                          My apprentice card only has one year on it technically, but I've been working in the field for 2 years, and working 70+/- hour weeks, you could even assume nearly 3 years.

                          It felt weird, I'm a real nice, relaxed and down to earth guy, and 'my helper' just pushed his luck. The boss man even warned me saying he's lazy. I love to work around people who are educated in the field, and educate themselves, and own their own tools. Sadly at this company there's none like this, and it's frustrating working around lazy guys that need to borrow my tools all day long.

                          Duck- I haven't even heard of vacuum breakers used 'on' a water heater until you brought it up.

                          Thats for sure, at time's it gets confusing.

                          It's the same here as well. 2 times the pipe supplying the fixture. So... 1" on a faucet.

                          Dog- No problem. Thanks. They are at/close to arm's length the angle's just doesn't make it appear so. I understand and greatly appreciate all the input you give me.
                          Proud To Be Union!!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

                            NY does not use the NSPC as far as I know. I think there are only two states that still do, New Jersey and Connecticut.
                            "It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?" Bob D. 2006

                            https://www.youtube.com/user/PowerToolInstitute

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

                              One other thing that I would have done, not that it's code or anything but I would have put a shutoff on the hot side for future change out. And I would not have put it on any pvc legs, lower the shut off valve, but all in all you did a great job. freddy

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Terms can be confusing

                                Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
                                I gotta ask though how you can be a first year apprentice and have someone working under you. I'm kinda surprised your out on your own and I can't get used to a 16 YO being able to drive a commercial vehicle but that's because here in NJ that is not allowed, you must be 18 to operate machinery or a commercial vehicle. But then again, you have to be 18 to start an apprenticeship too.
                                Bob,

                                Here, in the Northern Virginia, DC & Maryland area, new construction companies will put anybody on a truck. At least, that's been the norm with the incredible amount of new construction that has been going-on over the last two decades. When I was young, I was as eager as Aaron and found myself on a truck in just over six months after cutting my first piece of ABS. I, however, had to use my own truck since the company I worked for was new and small and couldn't afford to buy me a truck. The training and experience of plumbers in this area has always gone unchecked. I didn't start the apprenticeship program until three or four years after I was on a truck. I was the only "plumber" I knew (other than those in the classes I attended at night) who cared to go through the program. The small company I started-out with grew into an employer of over 150. When I was 21, I was assigned the title of "V.P. of Operations" with this company. I was the boss of men three-times my age and I hadn't even completed my apprenticeship yet. I don't think my story is too unusual for this area. There are (or, perhaps, were) too many unqualified "plumbers" in charge around here.

                                I am not saying that Aaron is just another guy on a truck calling himself a plumber -- to the contrary. Right now, new construction is in the dumps around here, and companies can more easily pick and choose who they give a truck to, so Aaron has obviously impressed somebody. From his posts, I can tell he really cares about what he does and how he does it. He seems very sincere and willing to learn -- evidence being this thread. I think he knows, as everybody (besides Sylvan) here knows, there is more to learn every day. Aaron is a very humble man and I think his attitude and willingness to listen and to learn will take him to the top of whatever it is he decides to do.

                                I am not happy that new construction has slowed so much that many of my friends and former workmates are now unemployed, but I am happy that this Lull (hopefully only a lull) has helped to weed-out the less experienced of the unexperienced. I am happy that Aaron has been given the opportunity to be in charge at such a young age. I just hope he carries-on with the attitude and fortitude he now displays. I hope he shares his knowledge with everybody willing to listen. I hope he takes that 3/4" tee off of the relief valve discharge, cuts the PVC down just a little, sweats on a 3/4" 90 where the tee was and leaves an air gap.

                                Nice looking work, Aaron. Just take the advice you have been given by these seasoned plumbers and make the changes necessary. Now you know what to do. You have this situation licked for the rest of your life. I really respect your willingness to post these pictures, knowing you wouldn't get kudos from everybody. You have a bright future ahead of you.

                                Bruce

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