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  • #46
    JUST SAVED A FORTUNE thanks

    Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
    It seems we are talking apples and oranges here. It appears the water heater in question is installed in a single family residential home. The way I would pressure test a water heater in a single family residential home would be to open the cold water valve to the water heater.

    If there were multiple water heaters in the home or multiple units being fed by the heater a second valve may help but in this case as has already been pointed out it would be a waste of the customer's money.

    Mark

    Good Call Mark, after all a secondary valve has to cost at least $30 thus it makes sense to for go the ease of replacement for the next person coming along.

    So what if the ONE valve you install should fail it doesn't matter you did save the people money on the initial installation.

    Also I didn't know that TESTING with Cold water would create the same PRESSURE as a tank with hot water in it.

    Live and learn and FORGET the BS pressure temperature relationship and all that good USELESS stuff that those engineers put out.

    Thank you Mark, I stand corrected NO more "isolation valves"

    How about using Gerber tile stops, this way two valve can shut off an entire bathroom THUS you do not need a separate valve for the toilet/no integral stops for the shower and no shut off valves needed for each faucet as the TWO valve one H and one C and we will have cut out the need for ones by each fixture.

    Golly we just saved the home owner a fortune in valves.

    Thank you Mark... I guess when you said one family home your talking about the one's I work in that are up to 6 STORIES IN HEIGHT as one valve fits all or is the one family a double wide?

    How's about the possibly of just one VERY good quality main valve and save even more by using the main valve only?





    Comment


    • #47
      Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

      just to add a little to this debate.

      i've done thousands of heaters in new construction and hundreds of replacement heaters.

      i've never installed a heater on a job that was still in the framing stage. how does the dry waller, painter and other trades work around a heater? why should they have to work around it? who pays for it when it gets damaged?

      sure a bathtub needs to be installed in the ruff. but we also protect them and it's the way the job progresses.

      heaters out here require seismic straps and you can't strap to an unfinished wall.

      why not install the heater when you set finish?

      as far as a hot water shut off valve. only on a heater hooked up to a manifold for multiple heaters. never on a residential single heater.

      a commercial tank heater sure as it needs to be cleaned from the hand hole clean out. a domestic boiler, sure. a heater and storage tank, isolation valves between the tank and heater.

      605.2 of the upc. "a full way valve shall be installed on the cold water supply pipe to each water heater at or near the water heater"

      installing a hot water outlet valve on a residential 30-75 gallon heater serves no point. not to mention that by the time it is needed, it will probably be frozen. i don't recall any owner exercising the valves. typical water heaters last 5- 20 years. install a good quality inlet valve and have the owner test it annually.

      i also install inlet and outlet isolation valves on circulating pumps as a pump will require service or replacement more often than a heater.

      rick.
      phoebe it is

      Comment


      • #48
        Re:Sorry BUT I have to disagree

        Originally posted by Velosapien View Post
        I think you might be confusing electrolysis from iron and copper contacting directly. Direct contact to concrete causes absolutely no harm to the copper. As a matter of fact concrete structures typically use copper tubing encased in the concrete.

        Y
        es indeed it will corrode. It has to do with the lye and other additives in the concrete reacting on the copper surface. Some folks use cinder mixed with "cement" which is highly corrosive to ferrous and non ferrous metal piping.

        Also copper has a high degree of coefficient of expansion per degree per foot thus embedding it in concrete will leave no room for this to happen and something has to give.



        "think you might be confusing electrolysis from iron and copper contacting directly" NOT EXACTLY


        If this electrolytic action did happen with ferrous and non ferrous metals then how come folks use BRASS gas valves on black piping? Or copper tubing on steel connection.

        How about copper DWV connected to a cast Iron or Yalloy or other ferrous metal system (venting) there is no ill effects on the piping integrity


        Ever see a brass radiator valve connected to either a Cast Iron or steel piping

        The reason for dielectric fittings has to do with several factors mainly galvanized (Zinc) will affect copper

        Red brass for example is 85% copper 15% zinc and there is no problem with this kind of piping systems

        Yellow brass was developed in order to save on the copper content and thus is is 60% copper 40% Zinc and it becomes very brittle due to "de-zincification"

        Actually it is a poor idea to allow any piping to be in contact with cement and some codes do not allow it and even state a pipie passing through a wall or floor shall be protected by an iron pipe sleeve (some allow plastic sleeves)


        Why not check with the copper development association (CDA) and find the real facts about the pros and cons of copper rather then getting 2nd or 3rd hand information

        Some comes do say "Clean back fill" then cement or black top etc.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: JUST SAVED A FORTUNE thanks

          Originally posted by Sylvan Tieger View Post
          Good Call Mark, after all a secondary valve has to cost at least $30 thus it makes sense to for go the ease of replacement for the next person coming along.

          So what if the ONE valve you install should fail it doesn't matter you did save the people money on the initial installation.

          Also I didn't know that TESTING with Cold water would create the same PRESSURE as a tank with hot water in it.

          Live and learn and FORGET the BS pressure temperature relationship and all that good USELESS stuff that those engineers put out.

          Thank you Mark, I stand corrected NO more "isolation valves"

          How about using Gerber tile stops, this way two valve can shut off an entire bathroom THUS you do not need a separate valve for the toilet/no integral stops for the shower and no shut off valves needed for each faucet as the TWO valve one H and one C and we will have cut out the need for ones by each fixture.

          Golly we just saved the home owner a fortune in valves.

          Thank you Mark... I guess when you said one family home your talking about the one's I work in that are up to 6 STORIES IN HEIGHT as one valve fits all or is the one family a double wide?

          How's about the possibly of just one VERY good quality main valve and save even more by using the main valve only?




          Wow you guys are permitted to do that? Most of what you are suggesting is not permitted under either the International or the Uniform Codes which are the two Codes which I work under. As for the definition of a single family residential home it has to do with the definition as described in both the International and Uniform Codes.

          I'm also curious because you mentioned them, are double wides covered in your Plumbing Codes? I have not done too many jobs with manufactured housing but I have done some commercial work and school projects which required I worked with manufactured housing. Generally manufactured housing where I work is governed by Codes other than the Residential Housing Codes.

          Here in California manufactured housing is under the Department of Housing & Community Development. In Nevada it is under Chapter 461A while I believe both Utah and Arizona follow the HUD requirements for Manufactured Housing.

          Mark
          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

            Originally posted by Velosapien View Post
            I think you might be confusing electrolysis from iron and copper contacting directly. Direct contact to concrete causes absolutely no harm to the copper. As a matter of fact concrete structures typically use copper tubing encased in the concrete.

            Copper touching concrete will cause a reaction, due to the lime in the concrete.

            As far as installing a ball valve on the cold and the hot side of a residential, single water heater, never, this causes a possible problem, say the customer turns both the hot and cold iso-valves off, this can cause a expansion problem, steam problem, etc, especially if the thermostate malfunctions on the unit.

            The only way both the hot and cold should be isolated is if an approved expansion tank is installed on the system and if the water heaters are manifolded toghether.
            sigpic

            Robert

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

              Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
              just to add a little to this debate.

              i've done thousands of heaters in new construction and hundreds of replacement heaters.

              i've never installed a heater on a job that was still in the framing stage. how does the dry waller, painter and other trades work around a heater? why should they have to work around it? who pays for it when it gets damaged?

              sure a bathtub needs to be installed in the ruff. but we also protect them and it's the way the job progresses.

              heaters out here require seismic straps and you can't strap to an unfinished wall.

              why not install the heater when you set finish?

              as far as a hot water shut off valve. only on a heater hooked up to a manifold for multiple heaters. never on a residential single heater.

              a commercial tank heater sure as it needs to be cleaned from the hand hole clean out. a domestic boiler, sure. a heater and storage tank, isolation valves between the tank and heater.

              605.2 of the upc. "a full way valve shall be installed on the cold water supply pipe to each water heater at or near the water heater"

              installing a hot water outlet valve on a residential 30-75 gallon heater serves no point. not to mention that by the time it is needed, it will probably be frozen. i don't recall any owner exercising the valves. typical water heaters last 5- 20 years. install a good quality inlet valve and have the owner test it annually.

              i also install inlet and outlet isolation valves on circulating pumps as a pump will require service or replacement more often than a heater.

              rick.
              In a lot of areas the basements are left unfinished for the home owner to do later if they want. I do agree though in the west we don't install the heater until we set finish.

              Mark
              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

                Our code requires we sleeve any pipe through foundations, ESPECIALLY copper.
                Due to the highly corrosive effects of the acids in concrete to the copper, nothing to do with galvanic reaction.
                Here, we're required to put vacuum breakers on any water tank, regardless of location.
                The rationale being that if the city shuts down a burst water main, which is always below the tanks height, the vacuum from drainage of large diameter mains could easily crush the tank.
                I like this thread, regardless of personal jab, the topic has substance.
                Specifically with code being cited, and reasoning behind that code.
                Lets keep it clean, no hits below the belt, if your opponents down, wait for the ref to say it's ok to continue.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

                  Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
                  Our code requires we sleeve any pipe through foundations, ESPECIALLY copper.
                  Due to the highly corrosive effects of the acids in concrete to the copper, nothing to do with galvanic reaction.
                  Here, we're required to put vacuum breakers on any water tank, regardless of location.
                  The rationale being that if the city shuts down a burst water main, which is always below the tanks height, the vacuum from drainage of large diameter mains could easily crush the tank.
                  I like this thread, regardless of personal jab, the topic has substance.
                  Specifically with code being cited, and reasoning behind that code.
                  Lets keep it clean, no hits below the belt, if your opponents down, wait for the ref to say it's ok to continue.

                  DuckButter, I never realized how lax some codes are in somethings and have other factors that make up for the short comings like earth quake areas have a heck of a lot of restrictions and yet seem to have a lot to be desired on piping arrangements and possibly licensing laws as home improvement guys seem to be dabbling in plumbing
                  NYC is now going into a new plumbing code that would appear be more lax then ever as the almighty dollar has dictated policy .

                  Should be interesting how they erode some of the safety features the code has as up to now NYC had it own codes fire and plumbing that were very strict.


                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

                    Originally posted by westcoastplumber View Post
                    Copper touching concrete will cause a reaction, due to the lime in the concrete.
                    http://www.copper.org/copperhome/faq_page_2.html#q24

                    Would you please inform me of any negative effects regards to cement and copper piping. Could the cement cause leaks over time, and if so, how long does it generally take to see the effects?

                    In spite of numerous myths regarding the acceptability of copper in contact with concrete, it is completely acceptable to bury/embed both hard drawn and annealed copper water tube in concrete. Decades of satisfactory service experience with the use of copper tube for in-floor radiant heating systems, water distribution systems and snow melting systems attest to the compatibility of copper tube embedded, encased or in contact with concrete.

                    It is also acceptable to run a copper water tube through a concrete floor or wall, provided that allowance is made for the lateral thermal expansion and movement of the tube and protection of the tube from abrasion. This can be done by insulating the tube where it passes through the wall or by wrapping the tube with an approved tape (to avoid abrasion) and installing it through a sleeve. Please refer to your local plumbing code for specific requirements regarding the protection of pipes and tubes passing through concrete and masonry floors and walls.

                    Both of the protection methods outlined above and the requirements listed in most plumbing codes are simply to protect the copper tube from the fatigue and wear caused by thermal expansion and movement. These protective measures are in no way dictated by the interaction of the concrete and the copper tube.

                    Also, the interaction of copper with either dry and wet concrete should not cause a corrosion concern. However, copper should be protected when it comes in contact with concrete mixtures that contain components high in sulfur, such as cinders and fly-ash, which can create an acid that is highly corrosive to most metals including copper.

                    One of the most prevalent myths regarding the use of copper in concrete is that lime in the concrete will have a negative or corrosive effect on the surface of the copper. In fact, a screened soil/pulverized limestone mixture is actually recommended as a selective backfill for copper tube to help eliminate corrosion concerns. There should be no concern regarding the interaction of the copper with lime in the concrete.


                    All construction around here is entirely in concrete and its standard practice to embed copper in concrete. I've been around construction most of my life growing up with two architect parents with 30 years supervising construction. I've never seen a single engineer recommend against it. I'm currently remodeling a bathroom with copper put in 50 years ago and it is absolutely intact after 50 years in concrete.
                    Last edited by Velosapien; 09-23-2007, 02:32 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

                      Originally posted by DuckButter View Post

                      Here, we're required to put vacuum breakers on any water tank, regardless of location.
                      The rationale being that if the city shuts down a burst water main, which is always below the tanks height, the vacuum from drainage of large diameter mains could easily crush the tank.
                      My guess is this may have a lot to do with the type of municipal water system you have. Out here in the West all of the systems I know of are vented with automatic air relief valves which would prevent what you are describing.

                      As new Developers tie into my water lines in Utah I have required they install a minimum 8" line for fire protection, shut off valves every 1/4 mile or branch, 2" frost-proof hydrants at all dead-ends and auto-vents at all high points.

                      Mark
                      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

                        Originally posted by Velosapien View Post
                        http://www.copper.org/copperhome/faq_page_2.html#q24

                        Would you please inform me of any negative effects regards to cement and copper piping. Could the cement cause leaks over time, and if so, how long does it generally take to see the effects?

                        In spite of numerous myths regarding the acceptability of copper in contact with concrete, it is completely acceptable to bury/embed both hard drawn and annealed copper water tube in concrete. Decades of satisfactory service experience with the use of copper tube for in-floor radiant heating systems, water distribution systems and snow melting systems attest to the compatibility of copper tube embedded, encased or in contact with concrete.

                        It is also acceptable to run a copper water tube through a concrete floor or wall, provided that allowance is made for the lateral thermal expansion and movement of the tube and protection of the tube from abrasion. This can be done by insulating the tube where it passes through the wall or by wrapping the tube with an approved tape (to avoid abrasion) and installing it through a sleeve. Please refer to your local plumbing code for specific requirements regarding the protection of pipes and tubes passing through concrete and masonry floors and walls.

                        Both of the protection methods outlined above and the requirements listed in most plumbing codes are simply to protect the copper tube from the fatigue and wear caused by thermal expansion and movement. These protective measures are in no way dictated by the interaction of the concrete and the copper tube.

                        Also, the interaction of copper with either dry and wet concrete should not cause a corrosion concern. However, copper should be protected when it comes in contact with concrete mixtures that contain components high in sulfur, such as cinders and fly-ash, which can create an acid that is highly corrosive to most metals including copper.

                        One of the most prevalent myths regarding the use of copper in concrete is that lime in the concrete will have a negative or corrosive effect on the surface of the copper. In fact, a screened soil/pulverized limestone mixture is actually recommended as a selective backfill for copper tube to help eliminate corrosion concerns. There should be no concern regarding the interaction of the copper with lime in the concrete.


                        All construction around here is entirely in concrete and its standard practice to embed copper in concrete. I've been around construction most of my life growing up with two architect parents with 30 years supervising construction. I've never seen a single engineer recommend against it. I'm currently remodeling a bathroom with copper put in 50 years ago and it is absolutely intact after 50 years in concrete.


                        On Long Island (NY) right after WW2 they had a site called Levitt town where they used copper for under the slab heating STATE OF THE ART at the time and really affordable housing for the returning vets.


                        Many of these heating systems failed with in 40 years (not to bad considering how many state of the art plastic failures there are in less then 5 years)

                        I Guess it has to do with the content with in the cement.

                        Being on the East coast there was an abundance of cinder from coal which they used for cinder blocks and added to cinder to the cement (possibly to save on sand?)

                        Any how the cement was / is highly corrosive and That possibly gave cement a bad rap for placing piping in direct contact

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

                          Originally posted by Velosapien View Post
                          http://www.copper.org/copperhome/faq_page_2.html#q24

                          All construction around here is entirely in concrete and its standard practice to embed copper in concrete. I've been around construction most of my life growing up with two architect parents with 30 years supervising construction. I've never seen a single engineer recommend against it. I'm currently remodeling a bathroom with copper put in 50 years ago and it is absolutely intact after 50 years in concrete.

                          I agree with everything you posted from the CDA. The CDA is a great place for getting information regarding copper and I use them all of the time. However, keep in mind some of what they say is self serving so keep an open mind when reading their literature.

                          In the late 80s I was representing a plumber in a non-reaming case which involved a high-rise condo project in Los Angeles. The Plaintiff’s brought in William Coffey, the then President of the CDA, as their Expert. I was able to save my client from paying anything on the copper issue but Coffey really knew his stuff when he was talking copper.

                          Mark
                          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

                            Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                            My guess is this may have a lot to do with the type of municipal water system you have. Out here in the West all of the systems I know of are vented with automatic air relief valves which would prevent what you are describing.

                            As new Developers tie into my water lines in Utah I have required they install a minimum 8" line for fire protection, shut off valves every 1/4 mile or branch, 2" frost-proof hydrants at all dead-ends and auto-vents at all high points.

                            Mark
                            Mark, if you recall I had a water main repair a couple of weeks back.
                            The curb stop was frozen open. -galvy
                            The street main just spun in place with nothing happening. -galvy
                            The valve on the main street...you guessed it -galvy
                            They had to come back another day, after getting approval, to shut down a fraction of the town, then excavate & install a curb at this house.
                            I think the local engineer mentioned the lines were as old as 100 years.
                            I asked him if the towns budget committee had any upcoming plans to replace any of it...his reply: "I'd be rich if I had a nickle for every time I heard that question."

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: I'm very proud of this work, what do you guys think?!

                              Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                              I agree with everything you posted from the CDA. The CDA is a great place for getting information regarding copper and I use them all of the time. However, keep in mind some of what they say is self serving so keep an open mind when reading their literature. .........
                              In conjunction with:

                              Originally posted by Sylvan Tieger View Post
                              ............NYC is now going into a new plumbing code that would appear be more lax then ever as the almighty dollar has dictated policy .

                              Should be interesting how they erode some of the safety features the code has as up to now NYC had it own codes fire and plumbing that were very strict.
                              I went on the website Velosapien left the link for, did some looking around, clicked a link regarding membership and found this:

                              Membership in CDA is open to copper producers worldwide and to brass mill, wire mill and foundry fabricators of copper and copper alloys with production facilities in the USA.

                              The fact is that my states code REQUIRES sleeving over-rides ANY manufacturers faq list.
                              The tobacco industry MFG's had their own set of "facts" years ago.
                              I DON'T want to get into any form of political debate, just in keeping it simple, I adhere to what my code requires and my better judgement when even thats in doubt.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                RE one product

                                Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                                I agree with everything you posted from the CDA. The CDA is a great place for getting information regarding copper and I use them all of the time. However, keep in mind some of what they say is self serving so keep an open mind when reading their literature.

                                In the late 80s I was representing a plumber in a non-reaming case which involved a high-rise condo project in Los Angeles. The Plaintiff’s brought in William Coffey, the then President of the CDA, as their Expert. I was able to save my client from paying anything on the copper issue but Coffey really knew his stuff when he was talking copper.

                                Mark
                                Considering the CDA is in NYC ( or was) and I did speak to them on numerous occasions and William was always available to answer questions I agree he knows his stuff.

                                I also work for a foundation that has its roots mining copper ore so they also are a wealth of information. The key is knowing where to look and not take one product as gospel

                                Copper although a product with over 5,000 years of great service to man kind does have lots of limitations like any other product

                                As much a use copper almost exclusively for domestic water supply, I know as a Professional Master Plumber no one product is the best. For example.
                                Since thermoplastics are non-conductors, they are immune to the electrolytic or galvanic corrosion that attacks and often destroys metal piping materials, particularly when installed underground.

                                Copper conveying hot water at 180 degrees F is prone to failure if the velocity is allowed to be in excess of 2-3 FPS (feet per second).

                                PVDF can handle high temperatures up to 280 Deg. F (137 Deg. C) and CPVC and PP can handle temperatures up to 210 Deg F (98 Deg. C).

                                If I put copper against plastic piping in an acid system or even water with lots of minerals, like well water bet it wouldn't last a season


                                Copper is subject to erosion from lack of proper installation (no reaming Hazen -Williams formulas on turbulence) or poor design (excessive velocity). Copper can allow hydraulic shock to be even more intense than its steel or brass piping counterpart.
                                I would never think of using copper for my main sewer piping as Cast Iron has longevity and the mass to have a very quiet system and plastic waste is one of the noisiest systems imaginable.

                                Copper type DWV is paper thin and subject to attack from chemical action of domestic drain cleaners.

                                To say one type of material is better than another is absurd


                                Like you stated manufacturers are always pushing their products as the best, BUT as Master Plumbers we must make the final decision what is the proper material and equipment for each job application and what is allowed by codes and not just price.

                                Copper is a great material if used properly and you know its limitations.
                                I only use plastic under duress BUT if the system requirements needed plastic for an acid waste or water conditions warranted it, I would use the proper type of plastic as required by job requirements.

                                Black steel is great for steam applications as the coefficient of expansion is not as great as copper and you wont get the loss of BTUs from the piping.

                                Black steel is also stronger and resists the possibility of having the pipe wall penetrated by a nail, like a copper gas line can, can really be dangerous.
                                On a steam pipe you have the real possibility of having severe burns using copper opposed to black steel if you brush against this piping.

                                Steel can be threaded, welded and use mechanical clamps to hold much higher pressures.

                                Some members of the population are actually allergic to copper and any water passing through this piping must be filtered.
                                Thankfully we Licensed plumbers do keep abreast of current code changes and new materials and designs coming into play, especially in the heating industry with much lower hydronic temperatures and plastic being used underground in long joint free grids.

                                The problem as I see it is many material manufacturers always tell how great their products are but never the short comings!

                                Don't get me started as It may get too technical :-)

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