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  • flush valve in residence

    i was sold a sloan valve flushometer and wall hung toilet, and told my 52 pounds of pressure was enough to make it work, i was not told i needed larger than 1/2" pipe to supply it,i added 30' of 1" flexible hose in drop ceiling to increase volume, still no good, was told by sloan about using an expansion tank and backflow valve, anyone have any cures???

    this toilet was used in a basement because the drain line exited the building 9" above finished floor, the house has 3/4 line spply to a jet pump,at 55 lbs. pressure,and expansion tank, then 1/2" line, we coiled 30' of 1" plastic in the ceiling to up the volume, and also tried
    1.6, 3.5, and 4.5 diaghrams, still no luck, called sloan to try a low pressure diaghram,
    (a-175-a), and told that wont work, that i need a 5 gal. expansion tank and back flow valve near toilet??? bsmnt has a drop ceiling, so i can run new line to jet pump???
    joe

  • #2
    Re: flush valve in residence

    Can you be specific about the toilet not working? You move the handle; no water comes out at all, just a little? Is this a replacement flushometer and toilet or a new install? How many gallons per minute does your water supply have? When you say 1" "plastic" pipe, what kind are you exactly referring to? Off the bat, I would say the Sloan guys are on the right track.
    Buy cheap, buy twice.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: flush valve in residence

      Originally posted by AWK07 View Post
      i was sold a sloan valve flushometer and wall hung toilet, and told my 52 pounds of pressure was enough to make it work, i was not told i needed larger than 1/2" pipe to supply it,i added 30' of 1" flexible hose in drop ceiling to increase volume, still no good, was told by sloan about using an expansion tank and backflow valve, anyone have any cures???

      this toilet was used in a basement because the drain line exited the building 9" above finished floor, the house has 3/4 line spply to a jet pump,at 55 lbs. pressure,and expansion tank, then 1/2" line, we coiled 30' of 1" plastic in the ceiling to up the volume, and also tried
      1.6, 3.5, and 4.5 diaghrams, still no luck, called sloan to try a low pressure diaghram,
      (a-175-a), and told that wont work, that i need a 5 gal. expansion tank and back flow valve near toilet??? bsmnt has a drop ceiling, so i can run new line to jet pump???
      joe

      This is a tough one Joe, I use Sloan Royals almost exclusively even in my own home I have the Royals

      My water main is 11/2 and I piped the flushometers in with 1" piping and I have 40 PSI from the street pressure

      I think it may be a volume thing more then pressure related.

      There is a way to cheat the diaphragm assembly on the 3.5 GPF (not the 1.6) and Sloan would be very upset if I posted how to get more volume out of their flushometers.

      If you send me an E mail Tiegerplumbing@AOL.com I will tell you how to possibly over come the volume issue as you have nothing to lose and If it doesn't work you can undo what I tell you.


      When I took the Sloan course (really they did have one) and I menthioned how I get more volume to flow they pulled me aside and were saying that is not for public information other wise I would have posted it here.

      ONCE I had an account money no object and they demanded a flushometer and the supply was 1/2 copper.

      What I ended up doing was placing a 3" copper tube 5 ft high (vertically in the wall) and reducing the top to 1/2" copper to allow for the water connection and then then reducing the bottom of this home made tank to 1" copper and then coming out of the wall with C x M adapter installed the angle valve and flushometer, between the volume and the pressure it worked like a charm.

      By doing it this way I had the hight to install a vacuum breaker plus the volume and the pressure to allow for a decent flush

      You can always try a Coyne Delany (REX) older type (3.5) and adjust the screw under the little cap on the flushometer cover or the Sloan Gem is another option.

      I almost forgot on the top connection (Cap) you can braze a 1/2 copper line for the supply to connect to and a 3/4 copper pipe also brazed into the cap .

      The 3/4 line gets an IPS Valve then you install a Hoffman I think its the # 75 air bleeder (brass) so the tank does not become air bound and have an access door so you can replace it or service it











      Last edited by Sylvan Tieger; 09-27-2007, 10:30 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: flush valve in residence

        this is a new install, water only trickles, but when i pull the valve out of spud, and flush into a bucket, it fills it in a couple seconds, and has enuf pressure that i have to hang on good, tried a new toilet,(kohler 1.6 gal)
        and all diaghrams up to 4.5, and cut ring to make it 6.5, sloan makes a low pressure one, (a-175-a), but they say no. what exactly is a backflow valve??? make model??? thinking of building a tank in ceiling out of 4" pvc????
        thanx for the help
        joe

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: flush valve in residence

          Originally posted by AWK07 View Post
          this is a new install, water only trickles, but when i pull the valve out of spud, and flush into a bucket, it fills it in a couple seconds, and has enuf pressure that i have to hang on good, tried a new toilet,(kohler 1.6 gal)
          and all diaghrams up to 4.5, and cut ring to make it 6.5, sloan makes a low pressure one, (a-175-a), but they say no. what exactly is a backflow valve??? make model??? thinking of building a tank in ceiling out of 4" pvc????
          thanx for the help
          joe
          That flush valve will never work right in a residential system with a 1/2" supply, and probably a 3/4" to 1" service. You did not buy that from a plumbing contractor, you latched onto it yourself. You screwed up because you should have roughed in for a tank or flush tank toilet.

          The answer is to hire a plumber to re-rough-in for a tank toilet, or increase your service and main cold water through your house.

          You posted on the pro forum, this is my opinion.
          the dog

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: flush valve in residence

            i couldnt rough in for a tank toilet, the drain went out through the wall 9" o.f.f., so went to Penstan supply, and asked my options the "SALESMAN" suggested this, and i told him i thought i needed at least a 3/4 supply, and he told me plumbers said they were getting this to work on 1/2 in. if the pressure was at least 25 psi., i told him i had 55 psi and he said it would work. then he started singing a different tune when it didnt. and, no im not a pro plumber, im a 20 yr +. electrician, and now doing construction/remodeling, so ive been around plumbers for a good while,and ask alot of questions, i knew i needed at least 3/4, but fell for a "sales pitch", so i guess im stuck with this since its in, and walls are finished. but i will make this work somehow.
            expansion type tank in ceiling????
            do you know of any tank toilets that wall mount???
            thanx for the response
            joe

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: flush valve in residence

              joe, i think that the issue is more than 1. you have a pump and pressure is measured static. with no flow. then there's volume. 1/2'' will not supply enough residual pressure and volume at the same time.

              with the pump, i think a expansion tank is the way to go. it will actually give you that little surge you need to keep the pressure up and add a little volume too. the toilet you have is a 1.6 gpf. don't install a 3.5 diaphragm as it will not shut fast enough and make the issue worse.

              an expansion tank is an air bladder tank. sort of same principal as a fire extinguisher. get a large enough expansion tank and and install a tee into the line to feed the tank. then pipe from there to the sloan in 1'' for the valve. this should give you the push you need. also set the air pressure to 55 psi.

              this is not the real way we do it, but a do it yourself screw up fix

              rick.

              if it wasn't a wall mount, i would have suggested a sloan pressure flush toilet. are you sure this is not the sloan they were suggesting to you
              phoebe it is

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: flush valve in residence

                Do you also have a special, super-secret decoder ring, Sylvan?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: flush valve in residence

                  Rick pretty much summed it up for you. I would be sure to install a check valve before the expansion tank so that it can do its job and help to push the water for the toilet only in case other fixtures are open at time of flush.

                  Regards,

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: flush valve in residence

                    You can also check out the Kohler "Barrington" line of toilets. Its a floor mounted, back outlet, tank type.

                    At this point, that may be the easiest/cheapest way to go.

                    Regards,

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: flush valve in residence

                      Originally posted by brucestorey View Post
                      Do you also have a special, super-secret decoder ring, Sylvan?

                      Yes as part of my plumbing license I am also a Master gasfitter and have the fire suppression masters license thus I am also qualified as a steam fitter depending on what task Im doing would depend which ring I wear.

                      Considering the fire codes are ambiguous at best ONE NEEDS a decoder ring, do you want to buy one in 18 K with your birthstone?

                      Special introductory issue has a mercury gauge or manometer engraved on the gas fitter ring and a plunger on the LMP

                      As told to me

                      As a young minister, I was asked by a funeral director to hold a grave-side
                      service for a homeless man, with no family or friends.
                      The funeral was to be held at a cemetery way back in the country, and this
                      man would be the first to be laid to rest at this new cemetery.
                      As I was not familiar with the backwoods area, I became lost; and being a
                      typical man did not stop for directions. I finally arrived an hour late.
                      I saw the backhoe and the crew, who was eating lunch, but the hearse was
                      nowhere in sight.
                      I apologized to the workers for my tardiness, and stepped to the side of the
                      open grave, where I saw the vault lid already in place.
                      I assured the workers I would not hold them up for long, but this was the
                      proper thing to do.
                      The workers gathered around, still eating their lunch. I poured out my heart
                      and soul. As I preached the workers began to say "Amen," "Praise the Lord,"
                      and "Glory"!
                      I preached, and I preached, like I'd never preached before: from Genesis all
                      the way to Revelations.
                      I closed the lengthy service with a prayer and walked to my car.
                      As I was opening the door and taking off my coat, I overheard one of the
                      workers saying to another, "I ain't never seen anything like that before and
                      I've been putting in these septic tanks for twenty years.


                      A MEN HAVE A GREAT week end Bruce


                      Last edited by Sylvan Tieger; 09-28-2007, 04:14 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Nonsence

                        Biscuit, I do not know if you remember the copper box inside a wooden box that was hung high up on a wall.

                        There were very common HIGH Tanks and they were supplied by a 3/8 Ball cock (Still in use in some older Manhattan buildings)

                        The tank was open much like a hydronc system prior to circulators . Open system no pressure build up other then hydrostatic

                        The beauty of these simple systems was it was impossible to be air bound and the high tank used the constant of .434 times the height to allow for a perfect flush all the times though a back spud 11/4 x 8 ft brass tubing.

                        The shape of the tank really doesn't matter it is the volume that is lacking.

                        Sometimes things can be over engineered and made really confusing.

                        To many plumbers think "plumbing" has to be overly complex to work.

                        I remember as an apprentice and later on as a journeyman working on these tanks and NOW in the multi million dollar apartments in Manhattan there is a come back for these as the 3/8 or 1/2 ball cock sitting 3" above the tank guaranteed anti siphon with no mechanical parts to go wrong over then the ball cock and Douglas valve SAME things 90 years later.

                        http://www.rensup.com/Pull-Chain-Toilets/12041.htm

                        History does have a away of proving the plumbers WRONG when they say 1/2" supply IMPOSSIBLE if one makes a tank even of PVC with an air vent and mathematically figures how many gallons they need 1.6 -3.5 GPF and they know thy have the required pressure there is no valid reason why it wont work.

                        The installer just has to consider the weight of the water 8.33 pounds per gallon and support it properly.

                        The volume is the problem here not the pressure as we well know


                        Last edited by Sylvan Tieger; 09-28-2007, 05:41 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: flush valve in residence

                          Sylvan,

                          I have never seen such. I am 37 years old, but remember I am in Mississippi (Redneck capitol of the world). By the way, I do consider myself to be a redneck as well.

                          I have seen pictures of the system you describe but have never examined one in person. But what the hell, if it works, go with it.

                          I have seen some strange/different ways of doing things when I worked in Europe for a couple of years( Mostly Portugal and Spain). Damn I miss Portugal, small country, but loved the laid back attitude of everyone; once you get out of Lisbon.

                          Regards,

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: flush valve in residence

                            Originally posted by drtyhands
                            "Bisquit,I don't know if you know what a water closet looks like"

                            My brother who is in his thirties re-installed a (water closet)this past winter during his time away from framing extravagant custom homes in Lake Tahoe.

                            Tieger you are so arrogant.How is it that you believe you are supperior in some sense.You are transparent on this forum.We can see who you are by the way you post.

                            We are knowledgeable in our areas.You are not going to get anywhere here with acting as though you can "baffle" this forum with the Bull$hi% that works on people who are ignorant of the pitch you throw.

                            p.s. ignorance is not bad.
                            I am very sorry, but I need you to explain this statement to me. I do know what a water closet looks like, but I have no clue where you are going with this. If I am off-base, please accept my apoligies in advance??

                            REgadrs,

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: flush valve in residence

                              Nevermind, dirtyhand, I now see where you were going. At first I thought you were attacking me for some reason that I could not see, but I get it



                              Well done

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