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No wax ring; just caulk the toilet

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  • #16
    Re: No wax ring; just caulk the toilet

    Originally posted by garager View Post
    Could this be a prime example of caulking a toilet, can create a bigger mess. I know its code, but if you cannot get some kind of warning before its too late, the person below the toilet could be eating wallboard for dinner. Also a running toilet should be creating a lot of condensation dripping on the floor as well. Apparently they chose to ignore this, or it was never leaking. Now there will be a sh!t load of mold in the sub floor and ceiling.
    No, Granger, this is a prime example of a non-plumber who thinks he knows something. Wait a minute code committees you have all been wrong for all these years. We don't need caulking around fixtures. Forget mold under the fixture, we need to protect the public against unqualified installers.

    Actually I agree with you. I think we should prohibit covers over light switches, in case a "builder" such as you installed it. That way someone can see the sparks flying before the house burns down.

    This has come up before with you, I take it you had some bad experiences with setting toilets? Leave it to the pro's Granger, you'll sleep better at night.
    the dog

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    • #17
      Re: No wax ring; just caulk the toilet

      Plumb dog like he stated in another post he has had to replace to many floors that were destroyed by a toilet being caulked, because the toilet was leaking into the finish floor and sub floor, and there was little or no sign of the problem until the floor was soggy and or rotten or delaminated, want mold caulk it and have a leak, that is a good way of doing it.
      I have had to replace floors for the same reason. (Code or not code it is a potential problem in it self.)

      As shown here there is a differing of Opinion, some think it is the way to go, and some don't. In many instances Codes are an opinion of some, and who ever the decision maker is gets it his way, and to further my point why is there so many diffrnecences of codes from place to place, some like cast some like PVC, some like XXXXX, some like this here and that there. Is one place necessarily right or wrong, Each decision maker had there reason for why or why not. (and some decisions are union or politics related and nothing to do with health or public safety, some are jsut time takers), Not necessarily it was right or that it was wrong.

      One opinion to caulk or not to caulk is jsut that an opinion, and in the past the reasoning was stated and here is a point for furthering his reason not to caulk or at lest not to caulk it 100% as some stated they do not caulk the rear of the toilet in the past. so a leak will show up. (And some think that caulking around the base of a toilet is not in the best interest of the public).
      Last edited by BHD; 10-20-2007, 09:50 AM.
      Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
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      • #18
        Re: No wax ring; just caulk the toilet

        Originally posted by plumbdog10 View Post
        No, Granger, this is a prime example of a non-plumber who thinks he knows something. Wait a minute code committees you have all been wrong for all these years. We don't need caulking around fixtures. Forget mold under the fixture, we need to protect the public against unqualified installers.

        Actually I agree with you. I think we should prohibit covers over light switches, in case a "builder" such as you installed it. That way someone can see the sparks flying before the house burns down.

        This has come up before with you, I take it you had some bad experiences with setting toilets? Leave it to the pro's Granger, you'll sleep better at night.
        I have no clue about the switch cover your referring to. So I asked about an electrical situation, never said I was a pro there.

        Plumbing Dog, I do know about a lot of plumbing, but I will stay to the light plumbing and let the pro's do the rest, because this is how I handle my business and the way it should be handled by law/code. I know just as much about the toilets as you do. I do put caulking around the toilets, always have.

        But now as I get older, I do see more of the rotting floors and mold that goes on when a toilet is caulked. So this situation is a damned if you do and damned if you don't. Do you do remodeling Dog??? To see how many floors/ceilings are damaged and how sever they are damaged when a toilet is leaking and water trapped underneath.

        I don't try to do your job, but when it comes to light plumbing (which I can do in the state of Minnesota) I'll do it. I'm sure your capable of doing some carpentry. Are you going to call a carpenter to add one more stud in a wall or are you going to do it yourself to keep the progress of the job going? This is just a debate, and I will always go by the code.

        Dog, do feel threaten by my presence in the plumbing area, and are my suggestions bad? I'm more in here to continue learning, mostly about newer products, whats the harm in that. So I ask a few questions, get into conversations, at least I'm active and give support. You on the other hand. like to step in and chase anyone that is not at your level out of here. Conversation from you, is almost non existence, but you'll make statements/answers.

        No Dog, I'm not at your level in Plumbing, but why should I agree with what you have to say. You chased me out one time, because I was a rookie to the internet forums, but this will never happen again. So if I feel qualified enough to answer a question, I will. Doesn't mean anybody has to listen to me, especially you. You don't like my presence here, why don't you put me on your ignore list. Maybe because I think you do like what I have to say in this forum......

        Not trying to rag on ya dog, just letting you know, I'll say what I want in here, unless asked not to by, Josh.

        Freedom of speech, isn't this what you preach??????? Have a nice day Dog.
        Great Link for a Construction Owner/Tradesmen, and just say Garager sent you....

        http://www.contractorspub.com

        A good climbing rope will last you 3 to 5 years, a bad climbing rope will last you a life time !!!

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: No wax ring; just caulk the toilet

          After setting hundreds of toilets.I firmly believe that if the w/c is not dapped down there is too high of a probability that over time movement,I know you secured it when you put it in, will cause the ring to fail.

          If you guys have had the oppotunity to set your fixtures with uniform surfaces you may have had better LUCK with not using a sealant,Plumbers on the other hand have had so much experience involving all the variables involved with completing this fixture under it's exsisting conditions.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: No wax ring; just caulk the toilet

            Of course code here requires caulk around the toilet or where any plumbing fixture meets the wall or floor, with the exception of carpet - and why anyone would want to carpet a bathroom is beyond me.

            There have been a lot of good points made in this thread regarding support of the toilet and so on. Little boys miss (as well as big ones) and I seldom lift an uncaulked toilet that doesn't have a nasty smear of urine, dirt, mop slosh, and/or bugs beneath it.

            As to plaster - that would certainly be a rarity. They make plastic shims for this, or you can use wood shims, cutting off either flush with the edge of the toilet base, then using silicone to fill the gap - assuming it's not too large. I mean, if you've got a half inch or more on one side of the toilet, then by all means, use some kind of floor leveler first.

            Silicone hardens enough to support the toilet pretty well, so even if you use wood shims, you don't have to worry about them rotting away. You have to cut the caulk away before you try pulling the toilet again, or you'll rip the vinyl. Maybe even pull up a tile.

            Some plumbers have said that they caulk around the flange before they set the closet to prevent water getting beneath vinyl, but I can't swear to the effectiveness or necessity of doing so.

            BTW - it's my strong opinion that the misuse of gaskets with a plastic insert leads to more toilet seal failures than any other factor. On a normal seal, the flange rests on the top of the floor, and there isn't a lot of space between flange and china. The plastic squeezes out of the wax and doesn't seal to anything. These gaskets are useful when the space is thicker, as in when the flange doesn't rest on the floor, but is either flush or below floor level, but you should otherwise use a plain bol-wax with no frills.

            Amateurs look at these things and probably think: "This one's bigger, it must be better." A great many floors have been replaced because of the wrong gasket. I notice that Homey's Toilet-in-a-Box (American Standard) has the plastic insert in the supplied wax.

            When a toilet is leaking and the bolts aren't broken, I expect to find:
            a) plastic insert
            b) cad-plated bolts
            c) swollen plastic premade supply tube
            d) straight valve coming out of the wall or angle valve from the floor
            e) toilet was installed by a handyman, flooring installer, homeowner
            f) any combination of the above

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: No wax ring; just caulk the toilet

              Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
              After setting hundreds of toilets.I firmly believe that if the w/c is not dapped down there is too high of a probability that over time movement,I know you secured it when you put it in, will cause the ring to fail.

              If you guys have had the oppotunity to set your fixtures with uniform surfaces you may have had better LUCK with not using a sealant,Plumbers on the other hand have had so much experience involving all the variables involved with completing this fixture under it's exsisting conditions.
              adam, only hundreds, try many, many thousands

              very true, if a toilet is not caulked it will move. in the older days with older toilet there were 2 bolts securing it to the flange and 2 screws securing it to the floor. these toilets had a larger foot print and typically didn't move.

              i can tell all of you from years of doing service, that an un-caulked toilet is much , much worse than a caulked toilet. a properly installed toilet will not leak unless you blow it out trying to plunge a main line stoppage.

              an un-caulked toilet is not only a very unsanitary situation, but will move unless the floor and toilet base are perfectly flat. remember there are only 2 screws securing a floor mounted, bottom outlet toilet made in the last 30+ years.

              if the toilet is properly installed, it will not leak. although i've had dozens of calls from owners allowing the flooring contractor reinstall the toilet after the new hardwood, tile, vinyl floor was installed. some get it right, most get it wrong. stacking of wax rings has a better potential of leaking than a single wax ring.

              maybe i will take pictures of what a floor looks like when i pull a non caulked toilet

              very few leaking toilets go un noticed and damage floors and ceilings to the point that has been described. a hardwood floor has the highest potential for damage from leaks. also in my experiance, most toilet leaks are not from leaking bowl waxes, but from flex line, angle stops, ballcocks, refill tubes. so in a way the caulking prevented the outside water from geting under the toilet. please show me a bathroom where everyone had 100% proper aim

              if it wasn't for the caulking, you might as well piss under the toilet

              you guys do as you want, us plumbers will do what is correct and what we know is proven by years and thousands of installations and follow ups.

              not trying to stir the pot, just showing examples of real life experiance in the trade.

              rick.
              phoebe it is

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: No wax ring; just caulk the toilet

                Wow, I'll say it again, "I do use caulking". Ummm, in the past thread, I also said I use plastic shims. What I have to say about the caulking of a toilet, is just an opinion guys, thats all, and I'm not the only one with this opinion. Also for the support of a toilet, I do not just rely on the caulking, thus the reason I use plastic shims...

                It is code, so I go by the code...

                Now I responded back to Dog, because he doesn't like me being in here. Also if you plumbers don't want me reading what you have to say and talking with all of you, I'll just quietly leave, just say the word.

                In no way am I trying to cause problems, its just plumbing is part of my life too, even without a plumbing license I will continue learning plumbing. As I have said before, I don't do the heavy plumbing. I put in faucets, toilets, sinks, etc. Whether dog has a problem with that or not. I enjoy being in here, and the dog is going to bark at me anytime I have something to say, thats what I have to deal with. But I'm honored that Dog is reading my posts. And dog, how many times have I given a wrong response. How many times have I ever given an answer to a question, in plumbing I think once. The caulking of a toilet was an opinion...

                Which in turn, I knew all the plumbers would jump into the topic and give their opinion too, of course the code gets brought in also. Freedom of speech, right Dog......
                Great Link for a Construction Owner/Tradesmen, and just say Garager sent you....

                http://www.contractorspub.com

                A good climbing rope will last you 3 to 5 years, a bad climbing rope will last you a life time !!!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: No wax ring; just caulk the toilet

                  As I will look to you Garager when I am unsure how to make a structure sound







                  p.s. The hole is big enough to drive a cement truck through

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: No wax ring; just caulk the toilet

                    Originally posted by Garager
                    In no way am I trying to cause problems, its just plumbing is part of my life too, even without a plumbing license I will continue learning plumbing.
                    It's a simple fact that there are places where someone who is not a plumber takes care of minor plumbing. I spent a couple of years at a state mental hospital where the designation was "maintenance craftsman" and you had to pass a state test covering everything - plumbing, painting, tile, electrical, and so on. They hired people for the tasks they had been trained in, but everybody took the same test and some had taken it a number of times without passing it.

                    Many government agencies here, such as schools, senior citizen homes, and the like, have full-time maintenance people who are not licensed to do plumbing. They do minor repairs and call a plumber for new fixtures or remodeling or major repairs. (usually . . .)

                    The fact that someone wants to learn more about it is far better, in my estimation, than someone who doesn't want to learn.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: No wax ring; just caulk the toilet

                      Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
                      As I will look to you Garager when I am unsure how to make a structure sound







                      p.s. The hole is big enough to drive a cement truck through
                      I just went back through and read.

                      Just for the record,
                      Some of us welcome all points of views as they add to discussion and broaden all minds no matter where posted on this forum.Who cares where here it's posted.I would be very dissapointed if I were to offer input somewhere other than plumbing section(I do have somewhat of a life) and was not recieved in a positive manner by the populous.Perfect example,when I first joined and occasionaly since I've needed help and the woodies with others have always taken care of my interests the best they could.I have been corrected when wrong so misinformation won't travel further.

                      Awesome forum isn't it

                      ADAM

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