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  • #16
    Re: More wax ring discussion

    Originally posted by Dunbar
    Wear Rubber Gloves
    Yup. Nitrile, so I don't develop a latex allergy.

    Lay a plastic bag on the floor near the toilet to be pulled or in the tub, whichever is easier and you don't have to step around it to work
    I carry a series of buckets - a medium one, about two-gallon, works for putting the old wax, packaging, old bolts, old caulk, wipes, and other debris in. Five-gallon bucket is used for water heater sediment. (Usually two to seven gallons when replacing the bottom element.) Smallest buckets for mixing hydraulic cement.

    I save the plastic wrap from water heaters to set toilets on. But since I haven't been installing many water heaters this year, I got some temporary carpet protector.

    Suck all water out of toilet with mini-shop vac from tank and bowl
    I used to have a great six-gallon that I carried - small enough to hang from the ceiling of the van. But when that fried, I replaced it with a more cumbersome eight-gallon.

    If the toilet your pulling is to be junked, tap on the hole near the bolts and chip crack the edge instead of fighting the bolt
    I usually try to haul 'em whole because it's less mess, but I've certainly busted them out a few times when it was the easiest way.

    If toilet to be reset, jam screwdriver into hole below washer and attempt to remove nut *I wish this worked even half the time* while keeping the stud from turning
    Half the time is about right. Particularly when the old bolts are just plated. Our code calls for non-ferrous bolts, but most of the flunkies around here don't care what the code says.

    Once removed and you know toilet is free to pull, tilt forward and reach for the horn and remove all wax completely from the toilet so you know there's none affecting the new one when set
    I usually sit alongside it and tilt it sideways. Less strain on the tank maybe?

    If plastic flange is broke, replace if no financial restraints; if they can't afford, spanner flange or hangar iron laid flat with bolt studded, predrilled holes in plastic flange for wood screws
    There are a number of flanges that will insert into the drain, some good, some not-so-good. It's not too hard to sawzall the ring and tapered part of the flange off, then slip one inside. Sioux Chief makes one that glues internally, but it's a terribly loose fit.

    On new flange installations, ALWAYS stainless steel screws
    Haven't. I use heavy galv screws.

    On ALL toilet bolts, 5/16", nothing less
    I use 1/4". I like to think that the bolt will break before the closet does, being less expensive to replace.

    2 wax rings, one to for sealing the toilet to flange and the other to basically
    seal any divit/separation between floor surface and flange
    I can see where that might be a good idea sometimes, but it seems to me that there is often not anything to keep the wax from simply falling into the space below. I've never seen anyone use a second wax that way. Sometimes, it's a real challenge to find enough solid wood to put screws into.

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    • #17
      Re: More wax ring discussion

      Originally posted by Westcoastplumber
      Just a heads up, kinda reminds me of the flat rate discussions and how "suprises" seem to pop up and how the flat rate guy's need to "add" on hrs to the job that they may or may not use
      Right. You don't bid what you can't see, but you certainly warn the customer that there may be hidden problems and what they might be, and what price to expect if there's a broken flange. Just hope it isn't a lead bend hammered flat on the floor . . .

      Last Monday, I did a job for a landlord/attorney and I did it T&M because it was one of those "Fix whatever's wrong" jobs on a rental. There was a plastic flange buried about 2" below the surface of a tile floor! But all I knew when I was first looking at it was that the toilet rocked and I couldn't tell what the reason was . . . maybe a C.I. flange that had pulled off?

      I looked at it on Saturday, and worked on it on Monday. When I pulled the toilet, I found a gob of pale wax ring that was pretty much doing absolutely nothing. The flange was cracked - no surprise since the bolts had been tightened enough to stretch the flange 'way out of shape.

      There was lots of room around the plastic flange to pop it off with a hammer and chisel, and put on a new, higher flange.

      I did a number of repairs and it was a good day for me - around $500. I wish I had more days like that.

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      • #18
        Re: More wax ring discussion

        Originally posted by westcoastplumber View Post
        Just a heads up, kinda reminds me of the flat rate discussions and how "suprises" seem to pop up and how the flat rate guy's need to "add" on hrs to the job that they may or may not use

        This is a good example of doing a complete diagnoses before the job starts and why when you complete your job right, and are a professional, you can complete your job for the amount you promised, and you also prepare the customer if something is broken like the flange.

        Arent you flat rate too?? Anyway, thats not a suprise, you never know when your going to pull a toilet and the flange is going to be rusted apart and falling apart...

        Any time your flat rate, you want to give your customers the BETTER, BEST, GOOD options...

        Anyone ever hear of Survey Menus????

        Your 3 options up front will cover you alltogether...BETTER option obviously would be either to replace toilet, or replace flange and whatever else, sky would be the limit....But if they chose the GOOD option over the BETTER AND BEST...then at least you showed them their options and would it would cost if something popped up unexpectidly...then they know what it would cost to do the bigger job already NO SUPRISES!! its spelled out right in front of them.

        Im a flat rate company...I ONLY do sewer and drain cleaning...My flat rates are pretty easy to figure out...My prices are simple...

        Its a no brainer how much drains should cost for flat rate, just buy judging time...Plumbing is alot harder, but i did work for a company how flat rated plumbing as well, and ill tell you what...sometimes it bit them in the butt too

        I will be sticking with flat rate, my own choice, it protects me, and protects my customers...all my customers get the same prices... But i totally understand the debate and discussion, but for me T&M just doesnt work

        I know this isnt the flat rate thread, just quoting Robert LOL
        The History of Sanitary Sewers Good site on the history of sanitary sewers and cleaners

        www.thedrainsquad.net Our website

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: More wax ring discussion

          This was a quote from Plumbdog on a previous thread:

          I'm going to give an apprenticeship lesson to those so-called plumbers who seem to be having a problem installing toilets:

          1) Shut off the angle stop to the the toilet.
          2) Flush the toilet a few times to insure the angle stop is shut off completely
          3) If water is still filling, the angle stop is no longer functional. You need to look for a shut off valve upstream. Replace the stop.
          4) Once the water is shut down use a plunger to to evacuate the water in the bowl.
          5) Remove the nuts holding down the toilet to the closet ring.
          6) Pull the toilet away from the floor.
          7) Having protected the floor finishes ahead of time carry it outside.
          8) Clean off the wax and grime from the closet ring. (For those of you unfamiliar with the term, it is the round ring beneath the toilet).
          9) Inspect the closet ring for damage and wear. If it is not up to par, replace it.
          10) Install brass closet bolts with a brass or stainless nut against the closet ring.
          11) Install new bowl wax.
          12) Set the new toilet over the ring.
          13) Check that the toilet is level. If it is not use plastic shims.
          14) Tighten the nuts evenly. Check that the toilet is secure and not moving.
          15) Turn on the angle stop and adjust the float (tank toilet) or the sloan valve angle stop (flushometer).
          16) Flush the toilet numerous time to make sure it does not leak.
          17 Caulk all the way around the toilet.

          I'm hoping to assist some of you. If you don't know the above, don't call yourself a plumber. If you are being taught different, find a knew company.
          __________________
          the dog

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: More wax ring discussion

            Originally posted by Drain Medic View Post
            Arent you flat rate too?? Anyway, thats not a suprise, you never know when your going to pull a toilet and the flange is going to be rusted apart and falling apart...

            I am but I took this example to make a point. One of our fellow plumbers had stated that flat raters need to over bid the job to cover the things that unexpectedly accure when we do our jobs, I was making the point that a professional can make a diagnoses properly, and not charge overly exorbant prices to cover things that "pop up"

            Hope you get my point
            sigpic

            Robert

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: More wax ring discussion

              Originally posted by westcoastplumber View Post
              I am but I took this example to make a point. One of our fellow plumbers had stated that flat raters need to over bid the job to cover the things that unexpectedly accure when we do our jobs, I was making the point that a professional can make a diagnoses properly, and not charge overly exorbant prices to cover things that "pop up"

              Hope you get my point

              Ya i get your point, and that is why you offer them 3 options, best, better, good Covers everything, but if you miss diagnose, then you could be way over your head
              The History of Sanitary Sewers Good site on the history of sanitary sewers and cleaners

              www.thedrainsquad.net Our website

              Comment


              • #22
                Too Funny And True

                Drain 'YOU'RE CLEARED TO LAND . NOT!
                I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Too Funny And True

                  Originally posted by toolaholic View Post
                  Drain 'YOU'RE CLEARED TO LAND . NOT!
                  I'm changing my forum name to A380

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: More wax ring discussion

                    Thanks for the responses, I figured some would consider my methods a little overkill. On a new install maybe but not on a nasty reset. I'm not production minded just a one man shop doing it the best way I know!

                    Thanks, wookie

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: More wax ring discussion

                      Originally posted by westcoastplumber View Post
                      I bolt my closet bolts to the flange all the time, and always suck my toilets dry with a vacuum.

                      What I question is why you don't quote a toilet reset?? you stated because it will stab you in the back if the flange is bad??

                      When I write my estimate to reset a toilet, I make a notation that the reset does not include repair/replacement of the closet flange, I also check my angle stop before I start to make sure it is going to work. I explain the closet flange situation to the customer before I start and they completely understand. the bolts, wax, supply, caulk, stop if needed, are all included in the reset.

                      Just a heads up, kinda reminds me of the flat rate discussions and how "suprises" seem to pop up and how the flat rate guy's need to "add" on hrs to the job that they may or may not use

                      This is a good example of doing a complete diagnoses before the job starts and why when you complete your job right, and are a professional, you can complete your job for the amount you promised, and you also prepare the customer if something is broken like the flange.
                      I use one of those 1 gallon shop vacs from Walmart, buy 3 a year because I burn them up from not using a filter on them when I use them for both water and dust. With dust I just leave a few inches of water in them, shake it when I'm sucking the dirt up as it will do a halfway decent job of adhering the water inside. I don't have time to keep switching to filter and then forgetting the first time I need it for water only.

                      The shop vac is $20 and fits inside my seat stool which is turned upside down while in the truck.


                      Everyone knows when you give two stage pricing, meaning "If the flange is okay the price will be around this much, but if the flange is is broke and needs repair the price can be this much."

                      Every customer I know only remembers the lower price, "So you can install my toilet for X amount of dollars?" and then I have to repeat it again, "Yes, but only if there is nothing wrong with the flange." "Well my house is only 11 years old, there's nothing wrong with my flange. What is a flange?"

                      And story rolls on like the most of them. I really start pitching calls away from me though when I get to this level with customers as I can throw these away. It's a new customer calling when these questions are asked most times and no matter how many times I say it, they keep stating the lower number.

                      People who know me, trust me and they know that I'll fix whatever it takes to get it done right and therefore a memory after I leave it.

                      I gauge 1.25 hours to replace a toilet plus $25 disposal fee IF they have that brand new toilet sitting in the hallway or right next to the toilet for me to install. I tell the customer that I cannot tell what's involved with the flange UNTIL I have that toilet off the flange and I'm staring at it, knowing the condition and level of difficulty it'll take to repair/modify/alter/replace to either get them back in operation or bring it up to code. I don't like dealing with flanges that are below the finished floor. I upsell the industry standard that all flanges are to be set on top the finished floor surface, no matter how bad the wood floor guys screwed that scenario up.

                      I have to see what I'm dealing with before I ever set a final number. I've done some horrible ones that I did hourly that I'm so glad I didn't give a set number. Some people don't understand "more money" and "more time". They think your up there beating on the floor making extra money at their vulnerability.


                      To Herk,

                      I use a two-wheeler to remove all toilets that I've broken the base to get it off the flange. Hell I've pulled toilets that when I lift the toilet the flange either goes right with it or there's no flange at all to speak of; just lead turned over neatly on a marble slab.


                      I've disturbed tank to bowl bolts when tilting sideways; I grab from the bowl backside right below where the tank anchors so that those bolts don't wiggle. Of course if the inside of the tank are in bad shape, I'll do a full rebuild.


                      Those inside flanges can restrict pathway, especially on a 3" inside fit. None are code in my area and I try not to use them unless extreme cases on emergencies at 1 in the morning. Those allen key types that expand are nice but I've never found a good situation where I've had the use actually fit the need. Add-on flanges like a super ring can work, but the total removal of flange is the best method for the customer.

                      Stainless steel screws because I'm the only plumber doing it, it's one hell of a sales pitch and they know that those screws will still be there 80 years from now holding that flange down with no signs of rust. Nothing else offers that protection. Just the mere fact I do it sets me above my competition.

                      1/4" bolts have too much play to them and the thread pattern can be too easily damaged either by bolt-cutting or hacking them off. I like the larger ones because the nut can clean the thread a lot better when reversing the nut back off down the road for whatever reason. ALWAYS brass bolts and nuts, nothing less.

                      I become victimized by the steel bolts that are being sold bright and shiney @ the big box stores. If it looks like high luster brass, have a magnet on your keychain to check for quality. If it sticks, it's junk.


                      I can see where that might be a good idea sometimes, but it seems to me that there is often not anything to keep the wax from simply falling into the space below. I've never seen anyone use a second wax that way. Sometimes, it's a real challenge to find enough solid wood to put screws into.
                      Water and wax don't get along so anything you do to keep water from penetrating through the floor is to your advantage. I had one toilet set leak on me since 1993 and damn if it wasn't for a well known tv broadcaster in my area. SON OF A *****!!!!!!!!!!

                      Came behind a wood floor guy, had to use 4 spacers and like a dumbass I used that latex sealer between the plates. I was green back then and believed that latex/water-based products with what I was working with was fine. NOT.

                      Told the customer not to use the toilet for 24 hours, calls me the very next morning stating the toilet innards are hanging up. WTF? "I told you not to use that toilet for 24 hours." "Well, this is the only toilet on the first floor and it's too difficult to keep going upstairs"

                      Thanks you effin idiot. That broke down the sealant between the spacers over a period of 8 months and did horrible damage to a ceiling, mold and the wood floor had to be replaced in that bathroom as it turned black. Only cost me $400 but I knew both the wood floor guy, the carpenter who doubled as a plumber by profession that did what I wanted to do initially for all the wood floor overlays: cut the flanges out and bring them to the top. But oooooooh no, can't do that when I was getting played to reset the toilet for $45.

                      It's good I don't make those same mistakes anymore.

                      A super ring or flange brackets are what you need when you can't get solid anchors for the flange. One is solid round and the other is two halves that come together. You screw the flange to the brackets and the bracket has a series of hole patterns to get farther away from the flange where wood is most likely undamaged.


                      I type over a 100 words a minutes so I apologize for the lengthy responses. Ergonomic keyboards are the greatest thing since sliced bread.
                      Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

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                      • #26
                        Re: More wax ring discussion

                        I had a couple of the one gallon shop vacs, but they don't really hold much of anything. The six gallon was my favorite, and I burned up a number of them, but can't find 'em anymore.

                        Originally posted by Dunbar
                        I upsell the industry standard that all flanges are to be set on top the finished floor surface, no matter how bad the wood floor guys screwed that scenario up
                        The worst is when the floor is shot, and you can't convince the HO to replace it.
                        I use a two-wheeler to remove all toilets that I've broken the base to get it off the flange. Hell I've pulled toilets that when I lift the toilet the flange either goes right with it or there's no flange at all to speak of; just lead turned over neatly on a marble slab.
                        Here, it's lead turned over on a wood floor. It's odd - when I started, it was still all C.I. pipe, lead and oakum, and I never installed either lead pipe or drum traps (though I was qualified to do so . . .). But around here, there are both, and I still run into lead pipe for sinks and tubs, and an occasional hand-made drum trap. I took one out once that had three fixture inlets wiped onto it.

                        I have a Wheeler Johnni-cart. When I got it, the wheels were too small and the stair rails would catch going down. I replaced them with larger wheels and that solved that problem. The two arms split wide and can drop a toilet, so I use a piece of sash cord tied in a permanent loop to hold them together.

                        I've disturbed tank to bowl bolts when tilting sideways; I grab from the bowl backside right below where the tank anchors so that those bolts don't wiggle. Of course if the inside of the tank are in bad shape, I'll do a full rebuild.
                        Yeah - I'm always careful about disturbing a set of rotten rubber washers. I lift the toilet out using the method you describe, set it on the plastic in an open area, then roll it over. If I suspect a problem, I'll rebuild, too.
                        Those inside flanges can restrict pathway, especially on a 3" inside fit.
                        I've never used them on a toilet with a large trapway - I haven't seen one where the opening in the bottom of the toilet wasn't smaller than the opening in the flange. It's certainly a consideration.

                        My preference is to simply go to the basement and lop off the pipe, put in a new flange and coupling - the few times that the building actually has a basement or access to the upstairs floor. More often, it's not accessible.

                        Four inch is much better - I usually use the ones that tighten with three SS bolts internally. Knock on wood - I haven't had a problem with anything catching on the bolts.

                        Stainless steel screws because I'm the only plumber doing it
                        I'd certainly be interested in switching. I have occasionally used brass screws.

                        1/4" bolts have too much play to them and the thread pattern can be too easily damaged either by bolt-cutting or hacking them off. I like the larger ones because the nut can clean the thread a lot better when reversing the nut back off down the road for whatever reason. ALWAYS brass bolts and nuts, nothing less.
                        I certainly agree with the brass bolts - it's illegal here to use ferrous bolts. I have used the Sioux Chief plastic bolts, and they do break more easily than even the 1/4" brass. But the big white plastic nut is handy because it looks almost as good as a bolt cap. And so many throw away their bolt caps.

                        I become victimized by the steel bolts that are being sold bright and shiney @ the big box stores. If it looks like high luster brass, have a magnet on your keychain to check for quality. If it sticks, it's junk.
                        I don't like plated in the tank-to-bowl, either. I've seen a lot of brass-plated bolts lately, in addition to the usual cadmium-plated. Uck.

                        Came behind a wood floor guy, had to use 4 spacers and like a dumbass I used that latex sealer between the plates. I was green back then and believed that latex/water-based products with what I was working with was fine. NOT.
                        Nope. Latex/Alex can sit there and stay uncured forever. Goop might work between spacers. I'm not terribly fond of spacers, either, but I've used them. I have often cut a thickness of plywood to put under a new flange - a donut that long screws can be run through, after drilling pilot holes.
                        I type over a 100 words a minutes so I apologize for the lengthy responses. Ergonomic keyboards are the greatest thing since sliced bread.
                        I have no problem with lengthy responses. I don't know how fast I type, but it's at least as fast as I can think. I used to love the MS Natural keyboards, and had them on all my computers, but when I started fixing computers in the basement, I ran into all kinds of keyboards and have abandoned the Naturals and use whatever I run into, including all sizes of laptops.

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                        • #27
                          Re: More wax ring discussion

                          I just scrape off the old wax and reinstall a new wax ring with the flat part on the W/C.

                          Hey there is no need to make it spotless of the old wax as the wax will mix when reinstalled. Just give the W/C a little twisting and rock from side to side as you smash the wax ring for a good seal.

                          I have set many W/C`s and never to this day had one leak!

                          I`m with Dog on this one I think you are going way to far
                          http://www.all-clear-sewer.com/

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                          • #28
                            Re: More wax ring discussion

                            Originally posted by DUNBAR View Post
                            Stainless steel screws because I'm the only plumber doing it, it's one hell of a sales pitch and they know that those screws will still be there 80 years from now holding that flange down with no signs of rust. Nothing else offers that protection. Just the mere fact I do it sets me above my competition.
                            If you use stainless steel bolts make sure that the bolts are NOT in contact with anything rusty. A stainless steel bolt in contact with rust can begin to rust as well.

                            this applies not only to martensitic and ferritic stainlesses but austenitic stainless as well. the typical bolt is a 302 austenitic stainless. rust stains on porcelain can cause a corrosion cell to start on the "stainless" bolt.

                            my apologies for the thread hi-jack

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                            • #29
                              Re: More wax ring discussion

                              Originally posted by All Clear Sewer View Post
                              I just scrape off the old wax and reinstall a new wax ring with the flat part on the W/C.

                              Hey there is no need to make it spotless of the old wax as the wax will mix when reinstalled. Just give the W/C a little twisting and rock from side to side as you smash the wax ring for a good seal.

                              I have set many W/C`s and never to this day had one leak!

                              I`m with Dog on this one I think you are going way to far
                              All I want to know is how he works the wax.Every time I try working with it other than placing a ring on a flange the stuff ends up on my steering wheel,my dogs food and in my girlfriends hair

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: More wax ring discussion

                                Again it will probably seem overkill but I wear latex gloves for pulling and cleaning then grab another pair for install, they are cheap enough. I will be trying the nitrile gloves, seems a little sturdier.

                                wookie

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