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  • More wax ring discussion

    All this talk about wax rings prompts me to get opinions about my installation practice. On a reinstall I clean the bottom of the toilet of all residue steel wool,simple green, orange oil whatever it takes and rinse well. Take my torch and CAREFULLY warm surface to get rid of all moisture. Take a little wax and "prime" the surface. Take a wad of t.p. placed in the trap and reset the toilet. I'm doing the priming step on new toilets also. I'm just warming the surface, not heating enough to crack. I might even heat the floor flange depending on jodsite conditions. Any moisture between fixture and wax prevents a good seal.
    I don't post very much but visit daily and really appreciate everyone here willing to share their knowledge. Thanks!

    wookie

  • #2
    Re: More wax ring discussion

    Originally posted by wookie View Post
    All this talk about wax rings prompts me to get opinions about my installation practice. On a reinstall I clean the bottom of the toilet of all residue steel wool,simple green, orange oil whatever it takes and rinse well. Take my torch and CAREFULLY warm surface to get rid of all moisture. Take a little wax and "prime" the surface. Take a wad of t.p. placed in the trap and reset the toilet. I'm doing the priming step on new toilets also. I'm just warming the surface, not heating enough to crack. I might even heat the floor flange depending on jodsite conditions. Any moisture between fixture and wax prevents a good seal.
    I don't post very much but visit daily and really appreciate everyone here willing to share their knowledge. Thanks!

    wookie

    WOW!! you are really paranoid, lol. Great job! I don't do half of what you do I pull the toilet, clean the way off and clean the floor, under the toilet, cause the toilet wasn't caulked, and then install a new wax and bolts, double nut, and re-set. No torch or spit shining the bottom of the toilet.

    On my top nuts, I flip them upside down, after the cap washer and the metal washer.

    I caulk all my toilets, keeps the water from going from the outside - under when people miss or wash the floor, nasty when you pull a toilet that hasen't been caulked, lots of yummy things living in that space, no matter how good the floor is cleaned.

    Great job on the re-sets and new installs, I am sure it does a great job, I am curious if all that is necessary, it will be interesting to hear comments

    Thanks for sharing...
    sigpic

    Robert

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: More wax ring discussion

      [/quote]
      Originally posted by westcoastplumber View Post
      WOW!! you are really paranoid, lol. Great job! I don't do half of what you do I pull the toilet, clean the way off and clean the floor, under the toilet, cause the toilet wasn't caulked, and then install a new wax and bolts, double nut, and re-set. No torch or spit shining the bottom of the toilet.

      On my top nuts, I flip them upside down, after the cap washer and the metal washer.

      I caulk all my toilets, keeps the water from going from the outside - under when people miss or wash the floor, nasty when you pull a toilet that hasen't been caulked, lots of yummy things living in that space, no matter how good the floor is cleaned.

      Great job on the re-sets and new installs, I am sure it does a great job, I am curious if all that is necessary, it will be interesting to hear comments

      Thanks for sharing...
      That's one on me.
      I know what a wier is.
      What's the way and how do I do I clean it off,or better yet how do I get get there
      Adam

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: More wax ring discussion

        Originally posted by Westcoastplumber
        I pull the toilet, clean the way off and clean the floor, under the toilet, cause the toilet wasn't caulked, and then install a new wax and bolts, double nut, and re-set. No torch or spit shining the bottom of the toilet.

        On my top nuts, I flip them upside down, after the cap washer and the metal washer.
        I use double nuts and washers - but I use the first set to secure the bolt to the flange, then another set to secure the bowl. That way, the bolts don't spin when you try to remove them at a later date.

        Too often, there's no securing nut and the only way to get the old bolts off is to cut them off, for which I use a dremel with a thin carbide wheel. Also works under sinks or for tank-to-bowl. (Wear your eye protection!) You can slice straight across the nut and split it in two halves.

        I use a small scraper around the toilet spigot, wipe with a Scott rag if necessary (always a box on the truck), then draw it down to the flange by sitting on it before using the bolts. With mostly ABS plastic flanges you don't want to overtighten and stretch the flange out of shape. I also make sure the flange is secured to the floor -- too often someone has fastened it with two sixteen penny nails instead of screws. (Another good cause of failure.)

        I also clean off the visible caulk around the base with a utility knife.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: More wax ring discussion

          Pulling a toilet is soooo much faster and cleaner with a Toilet Sucker.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: More wax ring discussion

            Originally posted by Herk View Post
            Too often, there's no securing nut and the only way to get the old bolts off is to cut them off, for which I use a dremel with a thin carbide wheel. Also works under sinks or for tank-to-bowl.
            Another tip you might want to try is get a nut driver for your drill. Place a metal cutting blade between the nut and the toilet. Turn the drill on with the rotation so the bolt will go against the teeth. Works very fast.
            Buy cheap, buy twice.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: More wax ring discussion

              Here's what my flanges look like right before I set a toilet. I double nut/stud the flange most times and I always use 2 wax rings for every application.

              1 for the toilet and second to butter the flange to prevent any wastewater from ever trapping between the toilet and floor substructure down to a lower elevation.

              There is nothing worse than a leak that doesn't produce results for months after installing, all to find out it created mold and water damage to the wood structure.

              Never will I leave an opportunity for wastewater to travel into the floor, always out on top the floor so when I caulk the toilet with the exception of the back, the damage is limited if someone doesn't notice.


              Absolutely will not use a horned ring unless it is a deteriorated brass ring to lead on a concrete floor application. I will not install a waxless ring application if a customer has one for me to install. There is just some things I refuse to change on in regards to what is tried and true, reliable.

              I'd love to know how many toilets I've set over my career so far. I've had my hands on 3 toilets in the past 24 hours. :sigh:
              Last edited by DUNBAR PLUMBING; 10-20-2007, 07:53 PM.
              Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

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              • #8
                Re: More wax ring discussion

                looks interesting Dunbar.Would you mind telling me what's the most controllable technique you use to prep the flange.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: More wax ring discussion

                  Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
                  looks interesting Dunbar.Would you mind telling me what's the most controllable technique you use to prep the flange.

                  Wear Rubber Gloves

                  Lay a plastic bag on the floor near the toilet to be pulled or in the tub, whichever is easier and you don't have to step around it to work

                  Suck all water out of toilet with mini-shop vac from tank and bowl

                  Disconnect supply/cut with tin snips if you are for sure that the valve is holding

                  If the toilet your pulling is to be junked, tap on the hole near the bolts and chip crack the edge instead of fighting the bolt

                  If toilet to be reset, jam screwdriver into hole below washer and attempt to remove nut *I wish this worked even half the time* while keeping the stud from turning

                  Once removed and you know toilet is free to pull, tilt forward and reach for the horn and remove all wax completely from the toilet so you know there's none affecting the new one when set

                  Once clean, set toilet on laid out plastic bag

                  Clean flange thoroughly, look for lead to brass cracks or deterioration, same with copper to brass, on plastic, take bolts and slightly bend in the slots of flange and look for hairline stress cracks to see if the flange is broke

                  If plastic flange is broke, replace if no financial restraints; if they can't afford, spanner flange or hangar iron laid flat with bolt studded, predrilled holes in plastic flange for wood screws

                  On new flange installations, ALWAYS stainless steel screws

                  On ALL toilet bolts, 5/16", nothing less

                  2 wax rings, one to for sealing the toilet to flange and the other to basically
                  seal any divit/separation between floor surface and flange

                  ***If flange is below finished floor surface, customer HAS to know in writing that it is improper and that flange extensions or double ring applications are not proper, just a modification***

                  Never give a set price on a toilet reset; it's guaranteed to stab you in the back every time if the flange is in bad shape.

                  Here's what you do when a concrete floor in wood overlay is in such bad shape that you have nothing to anchor to. These are difficult and time consuming but if you know how to work with waterplug/hydraulic cement really fast.....you can create a solid situation for the flange.

                  The trick is to NOT drill that hydraulic cement after the flange is set; have the stainless steel screws dangling in the hole pattern, pour that cement almost like a liquid, vibrate the flange so the cement will mesh with the thread pattern of the screws and that will be more solid than if you drilled it.
                  Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: More wax ring discussion

                    I'm siding with westcoast here. Everyone else is seeming a little anal to me.
                    the dog

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: More wax ring discussion

                      Nice idea inverting the top bolt nut but I think I'm more comfortable with a little more meat on the washers.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: More wax ring discussion

                        I'm sorry Dunbar I was only refering to the wax prep of the flange.
                        Clean looking stack.
                        One of these days I'm gonna get some help from the wizzes here and get some photos up.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: More wax ring discussion

                          First time I've heard a plumber like the cone up.We like cone down as it's less likely to walk the washers.Frustrating little buggers.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: More wax ring discussion

                            Some of this sounds like overkill to me. Its a wax seal, if you put the seal on straight and on a level flange you should not have a leak.

                            I think there are different schools of thought on caulking around the base of a toilet. The way I've always thought that is if you have your toilet on tile, linoleum, vct etc.. you should caulk around the flange, so that if a leak does occur it won't leak below and cause mold is a ceiling space that you might not notice for a while. If you caulked around the base of a toilet and a leak did occur, you probably arent going to notice until your ceiling is ruined. Of course if you have uneven tile and your toilet wont sit flat, you may have no choice but to caulk around it.
                            West Trail Mechanical Ltd
                            Service. Commitment. Expertise.

                            www.westtrailmechanical.ca

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: More wax ring discussion

                              Originally posted by DUNBAR View Post
                              Wear Rubber Gloves

                              Lay a plastic bag on the floor near the toilet to be pulled or in the tub, whichever is easier and you don't have to step around it to work

                              Suck all water out of toilet with mini-shop vac from tank and bowl

                              Disconnect supply/cut with tin snips if you are for sure that the valve is holding

                              If the toilet your pulling is to be junked, tap on the hole near the bolts and chip crack the edge instead of fighting the bolt

                              If toilet to be reset, jam screwdriver into hole below washer and attempt to remove nut *I wish this worked even half the time* while keeping the stud from turning

                              Once removed and you know toilet is free to pull, tilt forward and reach for the horn and remove all wax completely from the toilet so you know there's none affecting the new one when set

                              Once clean, set toilet on laid out plastic bag

                              Clean flange thoroughly, look for lead to brass cracks or deterioration, same with copper to brass, on plastic, take bolts and slightly bend in the slots of flange and look for hairline stress cracks to see if the flange is broke

                              If plastic flange is broke, replace if no financial restraints; if they can't afford, spanner flange or hangar iron laid flat with bolt studded, predrilled holes in plastic flange for wood screws

                              On new flange installations, ALWAYS stainless steel screws

                              On ALL toilet bolts, 5/16", nothing less

                              2 wax rings, one to for sealing the toilet to flange and the other to basically
                              seal any divit/separation between floor surface and flange

                              ***If flange is below finished floor surface, customer HAS to know in writing that it is improper and that flange extensions or double ring applications are not proper, just a modification***

                              Never give a set price on a toilet reset; it's guaranteed to stab you in the back every time if the flange is in bad shape.

                              Here's what you do when a concrete floor in wood overlay is in such bad shape that you have nothing to anchor to. These are difficult and time consuming but if you know how to work with waterplug/hydraulic cement really fast.....you can create a solid situation for the flange.

                              The trick is to NOT drill that hydraulic cement after the flange is set; have the stainless steel screws dangling in the hole pattern, pour that cement almost like a liquid, vibrate the flange so the cement will mesh with the thread pattern of the screws and that will be more solid than if you drilled it.
                              I bolt my closet bolts to the flange all the time, and always suck my toilets dry with a vacuum.

                              What I question is why you don't quote a toilet reset?? you stated because it will stab you in the back if the flange is bad??

                              When I write my estimate to reset a toilet, I make a notation that the reset does not include repair/replacement of the closet flange, I also check my angle stop before I start to make sure it is going to work. I explain the closet flange situation to the customer before I start and they completely understand. the bolts, wax, supply, caulk, stop if needed, are all included in the reset.

                              Just a heads up, kinda reminds me of the flat rate discussions and how "suprises" seem to pop up and how the flat rate guy's need to "add" on hrs to the job that they may or may not use

                              This is a good example of doing a complete diagnoses before the job starts and why when you complete your job right, and are a professional, you can complete your job for the amount you promised, and you also prepare the customer if something is broken like the flange.
                              sigpic

                              Robert

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